Kerrys' got a plan -

That was interesting and it's always good to hear from someone who has a personal stake in the war. There have been a couple of guys at work who've been there and are back with positive stories to tell too - along with the haunting ones. I was struck as much as anything though from reading through the rest of the post; I'm glad it doesn't get so acrimonious here as that one did.
 
Apologies for my rant yesterday.....

I've never been more disgusted by a political campaign than the current obnoxious mess, and it obviously shows. At a time we most desperately need a REAL discussion of important ideas from the candidates, with valid solutions and honest explanantions, we get the crappo of the last three months. The people of this great nation need better than what we've received. The entire world is losing even more respect for America because of the way these candidates approach a most critical election and direction for the future. It generates a deep cynicism in me and I'm tired of their big lies.

I'm so very disappointed in our political process, but am sorry I went off here and ruined your interesting thread. Please accept my apology....
 
Shucks Mike. I enjoyed the rant as much as anything else. You didn't say anything other than the truth!
 
Mike,

You said almost everything I have been ranting about on this election. Three issues stand foremost in my mind.

1 The deficit is going to come home to roost and hurt us badly one of these days, probably after the people responsible are gone from office. The GOP always talks about smaller government, then makes it bigger and spends more money.

2 Another war that had a questionable cause (I was in basic training when the "Gulf of Tonkin Incident" happened) is going on. We have had sad experience with democratizing people who don't want us there. No matter how many governments we set up, a people who don't want us there will not accept our "help". I hope our intervention works there, but I am skeptical given what I see in the news.

3 At some point the government (both parties and the infrastructure) should be made to recognize that the only citizens under the constitution are people. At present, people are second to corporations, which have no status under the constitution, but all the power under the present set up.

I don't have solutions to these problems. We have the tiger by the tail in Iraq, we are in trouble which ever way we go there. Iraq oil revenues should pay for rebuilding the country, not my tax dollars.

I think that a period of national service where the individual has the option of a term in the military or another constructive process either at home of abroad, ala the Job Corps and Peace Corps should be required. This would do good things for the country and for people involved. The draft was not a popular program at any point in history, but elective service for each individual as a part of enfranchisement would not be the same.
 
shgeo said:
I think that a period of national service where the individual has the option of a term in the military or another constructive process either at home of abroad, ala the Job Corps and Peace Corps should be required. This would do good things for the country and for people involved. The draft was not a popular program at any point in history, but elective service for each individual as a part of enfranchisement would not be the same.
Click to expand...

Now that is a good idea! I'd get behind that in a heartbeat.

Mke, your posts yesterday were the only bright spot in an otherwise wasted day. I'm still getting a kick out of it.

Fitzo for President!
 
Don, Steve, Dave, thank you. Verbal restraint has never been one of my strong suits, obviously, and I realize I am often offensive. :( However, I do believe my fatalism has some basis in reality. Our nation needs a change to sound judgement and a return to the basic precepts of respect, courtesy and individual responsibility or the grand democratic experiment will fail.


Government is, amongst other, more ideological purposes, a business. They take tax money in and spend it to provide services. As with any business, their goal is to grow, regardless of the claims to the contrary by the political parties. No business survives which continually operates in the red. We as a people will eventually have to radically trim back these expectations of service or suffer bankruptcy and total collapse. The tree will die without pruning back the disease, and some healthy tissue will have to be trimmed in the process. People will have to return to a greater level of self-sufficiency and a reduction of the transferral of personal responsibility to government.

As for the war, we once again failed to understand the history and culture we disrupted, I must agree. As in Yugoslavia, we once again failed to understand the depth of ethnic tribalism. My own take on Iraq is that this artificially created country is eventually doomed to a civil war and separatism without an ironhanded brutal tyrant at the helm. There was a certain logic to why Iraq begat a Saddam. Isn't it interesting that we seldom hear anything of the Kurds anymore? Why are they so quiet? Waiting quietly for the opportunity to try for independence is my take on it. There are Kurds in Syria, Turkey, Iraq and Iran. A potential very big mess when we are forced to bail out eventually.

Corporate America is at the center of our being as America. We have this paradox where we rail against their profits but at the same time are very happy when our IRA's grow because of them. There seems to be a certain innate fatality in capitalism, as it is dependent on continual growth, and the pie is only so big. I would love to hear some others' take on how we solve these dilemmas. We can't just blame it on corporations without blaming ourselves, too.

I am very ambivalent about national service, Steve. In one way I think it would be a marvelous opportunity to not only serve our nation but to mature our youth and teach them self-discipline, something we are failing at. On the other hand, when I see a military muckety-muck bragging about how effective military "conditioning" is on the minds of the youth ("We can get them to do anything!"), I become fearful of abuse and the dangers of like-mindedness. 1984 and Brave New World and all that paranoia.

I do know, however, that without a return to seriousness in dialogue and serious intent, and as long as our candidates rely so completely on childlike name calling that we can only get deeper into the doodoo. It will only change when we rebel against the way the system operates and change the parameters under which government functions. It will be very, very difficult to get 330 million people to simultaneously choose the common good. It is not in human nature; we suffer our own forms of tribalism under different names, like gay and Fundamentalist and Labor, etc. We have reached a point electronically where national referenda are possible, and I would like to see us make more of our decisions by that method. Unfortunately, it would necessitate sound judgment, very large balls, and setting aside greed; very lofty expectations, and most likely a pipe dream.

I wish I had some answers to our American dilemma. However, I do know that without diagnosis and awareness of cancer there can be no opportunity for a cure. And we all know cancer is nearly always fatal if left untreated. Sometimes we can't stop it regardless. I sincerely hope we have a treatable form.
 
Mike, I spent four years on active duty in the Army and two year inactive reserves. All the time I was in from age 18 to 22, I wanted out and was never close to being indoctrinated into military thought patterns. In retrospect, the good that came of it was that I have always had a sense of participation, and/or a feeling of ownership in that I contributed a part of my life to service and gained a right to bitch, if nothing else.

My DD form 214 trumps all flag decals.
 
Oops, I realized I used my wife's machine to post this:

Steve, I dropped out of college to join the Army when, despite thinking VietNam a mistake, I could no longer tolerate the guilt of my age-brethren dying while I sat in a dorm sucking a joint. The irony was that a heart murmur wouldn't allow me to pass a physical regardless. Not being able to serve is the single largest regret in my life.

Anyone who knows me well will verify my utter respect for those who served, and my gratitude. And I agree, there has to be a special sense of enfranchisement for having put your ass on the line for the flag. Would I were able to feel that.

mike fitzo
 
Mike, that's the beauty of the national service idea. Physical limitations could still allow service in some form. A lot of chores from public works to office jobs could be used to give service to the country.

If everyone had to serve in some respect, some would elect to join the military, while others would contribute in their own way and according to their own skills and talent. Maybe the military jobs could be higher paid and have some other benefits to attrect volunteers. Universal service would erase the problem or perception that the less fortunate are disproportionately represented in service.
 
Steve, you'll get no disagreement from me about the national service idea, provided we can safeguard against that indoctrination. The alternative back in "our day" seemed to be the Peace Corps, and I am selfishly nationalistic enough to prefer we solve our own problems first here in the States.

It would offer those stuck in an underprivileged urban wasteland of gangs and violence and hate to capture a moment and hopefully rise above the limitations of their environment. It would offer those accustomed to the privileges brought by money to experience the rigors of service and community. It could bring us back together and create a new spirit of nation and personal responsibility.

My only real worry would be that the system would be set up by those very same people who are botching it up now. If done correctly, it could be a salve for much that hurts our country ans set the seeds for the next "great" generation. We desperately need something to change our current vector.
 
Fitzo, no need for apologies. Your 'rant' made alot of sense to me.
I enjoyed it :D
 
Holy Spit! Yeah, let's subsidize NASCAR track owners and dog and pony shows! It's "stuff" like this that just makes me shake my head. Too many special interests, and none of them have to do with - people. Or do they?

I don't know if any of you have heard of Billionaires for Bush but someone gave me a bumper sticker today that says, "CORPORATIONS ARE PEOPLE TOO." I can't decide whether to put it on the rusty truck or big shiny car...or save it for my grandkids who will each probably incorporate for the tax benefits. :rolleyes:

Mike you're a breath of fresh air. I am thankful for your presence here, but for one tiny nit:

We can't just blame it on corporations without blaming ourselves, too.

Sure we can! I'm a highly trained corporate lackey and I don't blame myself! I disregard my company so much I use their pens at paper in my own home, for my own private purposes! It's not my fault they're enjoying record profits! On the other hand I never, ever, expense personal lunches or tires unless I'm pretty sure I can get away with it. I give them a full 38.5 hours almost every week. I'd work even more, but I'd miss primetime network television if I did and then how would I know what products to charge on Visa and Mastercard? I'm all for personal responsibility but I think moderation, in all things but oggling, is the key.
 
Hehe...good comeback, Dave, and, thx Ebbtide.

What I actually meant about corporations is not the evil way they operate. I'm thinking more along the lines that my future, ie, my IRA, is invested in all sorts of corporate stock and mutual funds and such. I desperately want them to do well so my future is secure, and my wife's when I'm gone. Hell, by the time I croak her health insurance will cost my entire pension and hers anyway, so I gotta hope for them slimey bastard CEO's to keep raking it in.

No, Dave, Nancy and I spent 61 years combined working for Abbott Labs. I was in pharm research and she was a secretary to the highest honchos in the company. I don't just suspect they're sleazy, I know so. Some of the excesses I heard of would fry yer nostril hairs, though you have yer own stories I'm sure.

Almost everyone who expects a pension or has an IRA is beholden to these companies doing well. At this point, I have to admit to cowardice, I'm petrified of my future if they start failing. I honestly believe that we are caught in a loop where we would go down the tubes if they are not coddled. That doesn't mean I like it, just that I think it is the paradigm of our time.

PS...you ain't seen a stash of purloined office supplies until you see what little missy fitz laid in for the long winter....
 
Man I know just what you mean. My 401K, and it's a pittance, still has not recovered from the dotcom bubble pop. And I've continued shoveling it in like a good serf too, ever since. I really am concerned whether I'll ever really be able to retire. I'm not joking when I say I'm trying to prepare myself for a second career as a knifemaker; I'll have to have some success at it, or we'll be, literally, flat ass broke.

When I get angriest, it's when I compare my earning with my father's. He worked for the same company and did far better than any of its employees do today. Even at that they screwed him (in a way, for his time) on his pension and they continue to squeeze him and his peers to this day. Freakin 'wipes. But it's even worse for us now; this once fine company has taken up the honored tradtion of other companies in finding convenient ways to "disemploy" people a couple of years before they're eligible for retirement. Of course the CEO is one of the highest paid among his Fortune 500 cronies.

His smile is very like the one Bush is so fond of displaying.
 
When they started "having" to have "disemployments" at Abbott a few years back, I made the disingenuous observation to the head of our R&D group in a meeting that the $30M the CEO got yearly would certainly cover all the newly unemployed and we'd only be losing one sleazebag that way. That one went over real big, but I was half dead at the time and didn't much give a hoot! I retired shortly thereafter anyway.

That was even a bit more enjoyable than when I stood up at an annual R&D meeting and mentioned that the recently deceased free lunch on yer birthday could readily be covered by the cost of the freebie Euro-import autos the "top guns" got new each year gratis. The answer: "It is a common perk given to corporate executives and wouldn't look right if they didn't get one. Appearances must be maintained." Naturally, the guy answering me was driving a corporate Beamer.

Lord, how I hate those bastards. To them it is a game of power, and our lives mean nothing to them. It is a New World serfdom for their aristocracy, and little different from the indenturing of the 1800's.

Like I said earlier, I have a problem with verbal restraint. :D I also seem to have a DNA-level resentment of authority. What protected me was the fact I was the only one in my specialty at that huge company and did my job very, very well. My luck would have eventually run out, I was getting more and more disgusted and mouthy at what the megacorp had become. I loved the work, but hated the job and company. I've only been back once, for a friend's 25th, and have no desire to set foot on their property again.
 
Appearances must be maintained.

And a damn fine job they're doing of it. I'm so inspired I'm going to give myself 10 extra minutes at lunch tomorrow, and smoke an extra cigarette. Right by the door.

Well, the employee's entrance. We don't get to park in the back lot, or use the shaded entrance.

Actually, we have a pretty trusting company - only visitors have to go through security. They don't even pay much attention to the cameras at the employee entrance. Not even to the ones behind the ventilation ducts overlooking our cubicles. :D
 
Dave, we had a smoking ban about 5 years before I retired. You had to leave company property and stand out on the easement on the road about a block from our building. It had a locked turnstile activated by a mag-strip in our ID's, as did the doors to the buildings. After about a year, people whose ID number showed up "too often" on the security computers monitoring the card readers were sent a generic warning about lost time and disciplinary action. Big Brother.
 
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