Kershaw vs. Spyderco

Chuck Bybee said:
Does one or two points of hardness in the steel holding the carbides make that big a difference on cutting ability?

Yes, because the existence of super hard carbides is a bonus, not an excuse for too low of hardness. Even with this strategy, Talonite doesn't seem to be all that great. The extra hard carbides are only slightly better than the stuff holding them in place.

If we were talking about only wear resistance, it would be a good strategy to have super wear-resistant carbides set in tougher material (and I think that is indeed the case) because the carbides would be held in place to take the abbrasion. This whole thing sounds like a wear resistance solution, not a hardness solution, which would explain why talonite users have reported the same old issues we have always had with steels not made correctly for knives.
 
Does one or two points of hardness in the steel holding the carbides make that big a difference on cutting ability?
Carl64 said:
Yes, because the existence of super hard carbides is a bonus, not an excuse for too low of hardness.
Carbides are not a bonus, steels are designed to have carbides! This is one of the advantages of modern metallurgy and in particular CPM metallurgy.
Carl64 said:
Even with this strategy, Talonite doesn't seem to be all that great. The extra hard carbides are only slightly better than the stuff holding them in place.
Let's review facts. Talonite is primarily comprised of cobalt. the hardness of Talonite is in the mid 40's. The hardness of carbides is much higher:

Hardened Steel ....... 60/65 HRC
Chromium Carbides .... 66/68 HRC
Molybdenum Carbides .. 72/77 HRC
Tungsten Carbides .... 72/77 HRC
Vanadium Carbides .... 82/84 HRC


The lowest carbide is twenty points higher than the material containing the carbide. And again, in real world conditions, Talonite outlasts steel cutters 5 to 1. The food processing mills can afford buy any material they want. They buy Talonite because it is the best material for their application. This does not mean it is the best material for all knives. The blade material should fit the intended job of the knife.

Carl64 said:
If we were talking about only wear resistance, it would be a good strategy to have super wear-resistant carbides set in tougher material (and I think that is indeed the case) because the carbides would be held in place to take the abbrasion. This whole thing sounds like a wear resistance solution, not a hardness solution, which would explain why talonite users have reported the same old issues we have always had with steels not made correctly for knives.
This is a quote from Crucible's website:
http://www.crucibleservice.com/products/CPM/toolSteel/index.cfm
The wear resistance of a tool steel is determined by the heat treated hardness and the amount and type of hard alloy carbides present in the microstructure. For example, at the same hardness, D2 exhibits better wear resistance than A2. This is primarily because D2 contains more chromium carbides than A2.
Your original concern was a steel was tempered back to a level you felt was too low and it would be better at a few RC point higher. Then you wrote. "The extra hard carbides are only slightly better than the stuff holding them in place." If you look at the list of carbide hardnesses, you will see the steel you were concern about has primarily vanadium carbides which are very evenly dispersed through the steel via the CPM process. The vanadium carbides have a hardness more than twenty points higher than the steel you mentioned.

In high alloy blade materials, carbides do the majority of the cutting.
 
Chuck Bybee said:
Carbides are not a bonus, steels are designed to have carbides!

I didn't say just any carbides, I said super hard ones. Having carbides much harder than usual is an add-on, not a replacement for overall hardness of the steel. As you noted in detail, not all carbides are equal.

However, as your data also shows, having carbides harder than the overall steel is not exactly special either. Only the levels are unique.

And again, in real world conditions, Talonite outlasts steel cutters 5 to 1.

Only for some jobs, as you noted. Food processing mills are probably closer to grinding and ripping than slicing, though there are obviously different things to be done to different foods.

It's probably also for tools that are discarded rather than sharpened. Remember that hardness is also important for sharpening ability in knives, which is one of the major complaints about steels with high wear resistance and low hardness.

Then you wrote. "The extra hard carbides are only slightly better than the stuff holding them in place." If you look at the list of carbide hardnesses, you will see the steel you were concern about has primarily vanadium carbides which are very evenly dispersed through the steel via the CPM process. The vanadium carbides have a hardness more than twenty points higher than the steel you mentioned.

I meant that as a "only as strong as the weakest link" kind of statement, but when I read it again it doesn't sound right. I did not think 70rc was only slightly better than 40, but a "good" thing is limited by the "goodness" of what holds it in place. I do acknowledge that it is still better to have harder carbides even with the same steel hardness, so I worded it in a slightly positive way, but the point is the resulting steel steel is nowhere near as good as how good the carbides do their job. The carbides might be really hard, but they are only as "useful" as the stuff holding them in place.
 
I think I understand what you mean, and I for the most part I agree.

The steel that opened my eyes and made me change the way I was thinking was S60V (440V). It first knife companies were hardening the steel to the upper 50's. The result was chipping and cracking. Then knife companies moved the hardness down to the mid 50's and the steel worked much better. The results went against everything I had theorized, but I could not deny the facts. The newer steels are forcing me to re-evaluate everything I've learned.

I've said it before and I firmly believe it. We are in the golden age of blade materials, and it just keeps getting better!
 
I only use Spyderco knives for edc, but 4 months ago I bought a Bump, nice knife, solid and sturdy, I hated the tip down only so I sold it. I don't have any experience with other Kershaw knives, but was happy with the Bump.
Cheers!
 
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