Khuk Hardening & Tempering

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Jan 21, 2005
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I've been reading a bit on the HI khuks and see that the Kamis heat treat the blade using good ol' water. I assumed 5160 was an oil hardening steel. How critical is it to use oil to quench 5160? Apparently not very. Is there a tempering process involved in the manufacture of HI khuks, or is this taken care of in some proprietary manner using a tea kettle and "eyeballing" it? Are a lot of blades broken in the heat treat phase?

Whatever they're doing apparently works wonderfully. I'm completely fascinated. I should get my AK today.
 
I dont believe any knifemakers anywhere use water to temper and harden the way the Kamis do. It requires years of apprenticeship to learn- they start in the shop around 10 years of age and aren't usually full Kamis until at least 30.



munk
 
You don't HAVE to use oil to quench an oil-hardening steel. Steels which are oil hardening simply have alloying elements which allow the steel to reach full hardness with a slower, less intense quench. Think of it as a minimum necessary to harden the steel - so you could quench an oil hardening steel in oil or water, or an air hardening steel in air, oil, or water.

Most knifemakers here will use oil, since oil is a superior quenchant - you get less distortion and less chance of cracking. You can look at the curves showing cooling rates of various quenchants at different temperatures. An oil quenchant tends to cool much more slowly than water during the martensite formation phase - between about 400 degrees and room temperature.

(Martensite is a hardened form of steel - when you etch the khukuri and it shows a temper line, this is a boundary between the hardened martensite and a different kind of microstructure, known as pearlite.)

When martensite forms, the steel expands, this is what causes the distortion or cracking. The quicker the formation, the greater the chance of distortion or cracking - so water is more risky. You can also interrupt the quench - stop it at 400 degrees and let the blade cool in air. This is called marquenching, and minimizes distortion. Maybe the kamis do this, but I doubt it.

(Water is considered an inferior quenchant for other reasons too - the boiling point is so low that a vapor jacket forms and stays around the thing being quenched, which causes uneven cooling and lowers the cooling rate. This is not so much a problem with oil, which cools much more evenly)

It's just possible that the area that the Kamis actually quench is so small in relation to the huge, thick blade that the distortion effects are pretty much insignificant.

On a related, interesting note, some current research has shown that in fact, EXTREMELY rapid cooling throughout the martensite formation phase may also reduce cracking, and have other beneficial effects, such as increased hardness, wear resistance, impact resistance, etc. This is called "Intensive Quenching". (take a look at www.intensivequench.com/intensiquench.html).

It was developed to allow a low cost alternative to oil quenches, and uses highly agitated water or brine. The technology was first used in Russia, and had to be low-tech and foolproof.

It would be very interesting if the Kamis could implement a type of intensive quench. Normally it doesn't work so well on objects of thin cross section, like knives, but some of those khukuris are so thick that an intensive quench might just work.

Back on topic, I've wondered about the tempering process myself. I assume that they just temper using the edge of the forge fire. They probably watch the oxide colors forming to gauge the temperature. It's not the best way to do the tempering process, since it could lead to inconsistent results or mistakes. My friend had a Sirupati which appears to never have been tempered. It chips out even on soft material. But, with care, this method ought to work well enough.
 
munk said:
I dont believe any knifemakers anywhere use water to temper and harden the way the Kamis do.
Some US makers do water quench 5160, Fisk mentioned it, however no real details were given on exactly how.

-Cliff
 
Didn't Bill post about one of the kamis pointing out the color change on a blade he was working during one of Bill's visits? Something about "this color wrong, this color right?"
 
Kismet said:
Didn't Bill post about one of the kamis pointing out the color change on a blade he was working during one of Bill's visits? Something about "this color wrong, this color right?"
Yup, the thought is that the remaining heat in the blade is what tempers the edge. As far as reheating the blade to temper, ain't done.;)
 
Would someone explain which sections of the blade are and aren't heat treated on some kukri? I noticed someone mention that some other big knives are done like this. What are the benifits of not having a working edge on some parts of the blade?
 
Hi there, Andy
I'm not an expert in any way, shape, or form when it comes to smithing. I think that the entire edge is heat treated, but that the area from the cho to the belly is left a little softer as is the last couple of inches of the tip (on an average khuk). The area where you would logically chop with, i.e. the belly, is where the steel is the hardest. I'm wanting to say that the waist and tip are maybe around 53-54 RC and the hardened area is typically 57-60ish...sound right guys?? The spine is left pretty much soft to absorb some of the shock. All guesses on my part, just parroting what I have heard. As far as why they are done this way, i would imagine it has to do with these being primarily farming tools. You want the blades you use non-stop 12 or 14 hours a day to be a little soft. That way you don't have to head to the house every time it gets dull to get your files. Just use a big rock and work it back to a good enough edge. However, you do want a spot that's a little harder where you are going to be cutting large things like branches and sapplings. That way the blade won't roll.
Other guys know WAY MORE than myself. Hopefully, they will chime in to set the record straight.

Jake
 
The entire edge cannot be hardened. Only the sweet spot is hardened, the rest is soft. If the entire edge was hardened, you would see the temper line along the entire edge, and not just in a semi-circle around the sweet spot.

Normally, when you are chopping, you only chop using the sweet spot. You might use the rest of the blade ocassionally, but it would probably be on softer matter, like weeds, grasses and vines with a slicing cut. So, having the rest of the blade be unhardened would not make too much a difference, as it won't get dull quickly.
 
The edge outside of the sweet spot is not soft, it is just softer than the sweet spot. Now, some khuks are softer than others, so I don't want to generalize, but the spine is soft and the tip of the blade. But you can certainly cut with the part of the blade that is not on the sweet spot.
Individual results vary. You have to test every khuk and see what it can do.




munk
 
On a khukuri, the hardened steel is of a martensitic structure. The temper line does not actually show differences in hardness, but shows the boundary between different kinds of microstructures. In this case, it is showing the boundary between martensite (hard, tough, wear resistant) and pearlite (soft, ductile, and much less wear resistant).

The area of the khukuri outside the temper line was not hardened.

Now, you can make pearlite harder and more wear resistant to some extent. You can decrease the grain size, this will help. I think Cliff Stamp once made a couple of knives out of a bar of mild steel. They worked. I once met a blacksmith who made little utility knives and didn't harden them. He liked them that way because they were easy to sharpen. And Kevin Cashen said on another forum that you could prepare a knife out of 1018 mild steel in such a manner that it could pass the ABS tests (chop through a 2x4 and still shave).

But, pearlite can't get nearly as hard or as wear resistant as martensite, and so most people would consider any steel with a mostly pearlitic microstructure to be soft.

It would be nice if somebody could actually check a khuk with a rockwell tester. I don't have one myself, though. I highly doubt that the areas outside the sweet spot are in the 50's or even in the 40's.
 
Khukuri Monster;

You must have a blade that is very deferential to the sweet spot. Bill used to post Rockwell hardness of the blades for sale here. They were typically around 60. Some Kamis, and some blades, have a pronounced sweet spot. If you strike anywhere else the edge may dull quickly. Some blades, and Kamis, harden nearly the entire length, excluding the tip. So there is no rule about the edge or sweet spot.

On the majority of my HI khuks the edge is hardened most of the blade, with the hardest portion being the sweet spot. Non sweet spot edge is hard enough to retain an edge cutting dried pine. Firkin or N2Sharp and some of the other techno's would know an approximate Rockwell, but it is much harder than your previous post inferred. That's a good thing!


munk
 
munk said:
You must have a blade that is very deferential to the sweet spot.

You can see the length of the hardened area by rubbing the blade with a little ferric chloride. The darkened area is (mostly) martensite, the rest is (mostly) pearlite.

On my 27" AK, the hardened area is 6.5" long. On my 21" Chainpuri, it is 4.5" long. On my 15.5" AK, it is 3" long. My friend had an 18" WW2 and 16" Sirupati and the hardened areas were about 3-4" on each.

In every case, the hardened area covers less then 1/3 of the blade length. Outside this area, you could consider the blade to be "soft", because it has a pearlitic microstructure. The HARDEST you can get pearlite is around 38-40 rockwell, the exact number depends on the specific kind of steel.

So there is no way that the area outside the temper line is 50+ rockwell. This seems to be a common misconception which is why I'm making a point of it.

Edit to add: I am not saying that this is a horrible thing. As mentioned above, you can take steel with low hardness and get it to perform reasonably well (yes, even cutting dried pine) with proper edge geometry. Here's an example:

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/tension_bar_proto.html
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/tension_bar_thin.html
 
I know about the tempering lines, KM. I'm not a knife maker or engineer, your question is better answered by wiser more experienced hands. But if the edge outside the sweet spot were as soft as you say, it would roll, and would not cut wood. As it does cut wood, I have to wonder. I have a beet cutter blade that is that soft and it cannot cut wood, but only vegitables.

I think it is Kumar who usually sharpens most of the blade length. Certainly more than a third. I've found the softest place is by the cho, but I'm not cutting there anyway.


munk
 
Khukuri Monster;
Why don't you get some files? We haven't heard of any testing for Rockwell in quite some time and it would be a good thing. If you like, of course. I miss that- we had several folks who regularly measured that and other specs.

Dan Koster and Yvsa probably have a good idea what the Rockwell is at outside the sweet spot.


munk
 
munk said:
But if the edge outside the sweet spot were as soft as you say, it would roll, and would not cut wood.

Take a look at the two links I posted. With proper edge geometry (such as a thick, convex edge) you can cut wood and have the edge not roll.

I seem to be giving the impression that I'm bashing HI which is not at all true. I've said that you can get reasonable performance even out of fairly soft steel, if you have the right edge geometry. Factor in that you will be doing the vast majority of chopping with the sweet spot, and it's not too big a problem that the majority of the blade is unhardened.

I would get some hardness testing files but I don't want to spend the $60 so that they cost. I would rather get another HI khuk.

I'm quite confident that the hardness outside the temper line is less than 40 rockwell.

Look at:

http://www.slcc.edu/redwood/engr/moore/mse/worksheets/jominyendtest.htm

They have a TTT diagram there (which is somewhat hard to figure out at first), and some explanation about how you can form different kind of microstructures with different cooling rates - but you can't get pearlite any harder than 38 HRC through thermal treatment (maybe you can through work hardening, I don't know). If you try, you will form a different kind of microstructure, like bainite or martensite. They are also talking about steel with .77% carbon instead of the 5160 like the kamis use.

munk said:
I think it is Kumar who usually sharpens most of the blade length. Certainly more than a third.

My 27" AK was done by Kumar. It does have the largest hardened area, but it's only 30-40% of the entire blade length. Now, this could simply be because the blade is so big and you can only quench so large an area using the teapot method. But it seems that in the many pictures of etched blades that Satori has posted, I haven't seen any with hardened zones covering the majority of the blade.
 
Nice picture! KM- I'd like to know too. It's A-OK. Everything is peachy keeno. I think you're right that on a 25" Kumar didn't do his usual. If you were here in my living room we could look at my blades and I could show you what I'm talking about- the edge outside the sweet spot will hold an edge and is not soft. (for many of my khuks- not all) I assure you with the hard resin soaked dry pine-like swinging against iron- a soft edge as you describe would fold. It doesn't.

So, I want to know too. Thanks for all your fine help. I wish you had some files!
Green for you, KM. We like the facts.


munk
 
It's kind of suprising how much abuse spring steel, even unhardened, will stand up to.

Remember a while back I had posted a picture of a barong that I had made out of a leaf spring? Here it is: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~robgaunt/pics/knives/barong2.jpg

I had a real tough time hardening that one. I tried several times, testing the blade with a file each time, and the file would inevitably bite in. Eventually, I just gave up and finished it anyways.

But, I took that knife out and tried to chop up the nastiest, ugliest, knotted pieces of wood that I could find. Dried up pine, oak, and cherry. And this was in the middle of winter, 20 degrees outside if it was a warm day.

The blade got dull, as I had expected it to, but it didn't roll or dent at all. A couple of passes with a chakmak sharpened it back up. So, I figured that I did a better job hardening than I had initially guessed. I pegged the hardness at 40-50 HRC even though I had no way to check.

One day I took the knife to show an acquaintance. He happened to have a Rockwell hardness tester so we went down in the basement to make some measurements.

The first measurement said the hardness was 33 HRC. I didn't believe it, so I asked him to measure it again, in a different spot, closer to the edge. But it was the same, or pretty close, at least.

I asked my friend if his machine was calibrated. So he got out the calibration blocks. The machine was working fine - it was my knife that was much softer than I believed it to be.

Maybe your khuk and my barong didn't roll when cutting dried up wood because we were lucky. Maybe we can chalk it up to the skill of the user. But I think that edge geometry has as much to do with it as anything else.
 
KM, that does make some sense- my Beet knife is thin and rolls; is the Barong relatively thick?

When Bill posted Rockwell Hardness, everyone wanted a hard blade. Bura's were consistantly 60, 61, 62..59. Kesar was a little lower; 58 to 60.

I remember well a special deal of the day no one wanted- a WWll with a Rockwell of 56 or 57. No one bought it. There was a big difference is edge characteristics once it got that low- said the experts. So, KM, when you talk about sub 40 Rockwell, I'm thinking about a bar of soap.

Most of my khuks can take a terrible hit against some hard unyeilding wood- and I assure you my technique is not always good! I hit off the sweet spot often.

I do have a 25" AK with a tip area so soft it folds on wood. Kinda disapointing, but the blade is for felling trees anyway and I used the sweet spot for that.

munk
 
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