Khuk Hardening & Tempering

munk said:
KM, that does make some sense- my Beet knife is thin and rolls; is the Barong relatively thick?

No, actually. It's only a litttle over 1/4" thick at the spine, and the grind runs all the way from the spine to the edge. It is fully convexed, though. I would say that there is less "meat" behind the edge than in a normal khukuri, but with the convex edge, it's not a big problem.

The hardened area on the foxy's folly and kobra is larger than on any of my khukuris. On the foxy's folly the temper line is very nice, running from the start of the recurve up to the tip.

I don't know why mine are different. The Bura AK was just messed up in general (that was the one with a counterfeit tang) so maybe an apprentice was in charge of the hardening. The hardened area on the big Kumar AK is large enough (although I wish it was larger, given the size of the thing). I don't know about the others. Maybe it was just the time of year, or I got unlucky.
 
What kind of etch do you use Monster? I have found that some etches help show the lines better then others. These were done with ferric chloride. Heated the blade then did several etches.
 
Khukuri Monster said:
My 27" AK was done by Kumar. It does have the largest hardened area, but it's only 30-40% of the entire blade length. Now, this could simply be because the blade is so big and you can only quench so large an area using the teapot method. But it seems that in the many pictures of etched blades that Satori has posted, I haven't seen any with hardened zones covering the majority of the blade.

My observations agree with this for the most part. My HI blades feature hardened zones of varying sizes, ranging from very small (on a 20" AK no less) to quite long on the sirupatis. Some of them extend almost to the tip but none of them are anywhere near the cho. I also etched a 1945 (I believe) K45 one time; the etch shows a deep hardening in the sweet spot that tapers out an inch or two back from the tip and doesn't even extend to the bend. It's only one example and so is statistically insignificant but it's the only example I have. My suspicion is that despite how some blades may be hardened, leaving the tip and cho area soft are not nontraditional.

I have an older one, one of the "pre-1890" blades from AC but I haven't etched it. I'm dying to do it but I don't feel right about etching an antique. I may have to do it anyway to satisfy my curiosity.

Two notable exceptions:

My Karka blade is hardened from tip to cho. There's very little hardened area on the ends - it's definitely focused on the sweet spot - but there are you.

Foxy Folly - hardened from sweet spot to tip. Pics will be up in a few minutes. This one surprised me.
 
I received my AK today! It has the initials "L.B.", I'm guessing Bura, and what looks like a sun and a crescent and some Nepali writing. It appears to be quite a blade, and the sheath is top notch. I gave the edge a few passes with a diamond sharpener without any apparent effect on the edge, which is already plenty good for chopping and heavy duty work. I carry a shaving sharp Benchmade 710 for the detail stuff, anyway. But I'm still interested in putting a better edge on this bad motorscooter.

4 days and I will be deep in the San Juans!
 
Just as a note concerning the "softness" of hardness levels, normal teeth are only ~33 HRC.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Just as a note concerning the "softness" of hardness levels, normal teeth are only ~33 HRC.

What if they're cryo treated?

(Thread will be jacked in 5, 4, 3...)
 
I also use ferric chloride. I didn't bother with the heating and multiple etches. If you just wipe the blade down once, it doesn't give a real pretty result, but it's enough to see the hardened zone.

Now I really want a Karka blade. I've heard great things about the workmanship, fit and finish, and now it sounds like they have a great heat treat too. Haven't seen too many lately...

Satori said:
What if they're cryo treated?

Well, then you get an increase of several orders of magnitude in hardness, wear resistance, and toughness. But only if you get them down to 10 degrees below absolute zero - don't go thinking that any old liquid nitrogen will work.
 
Khukuri Monster said:
I also use ferric chloride. I didn't bother with the heating and multiple etches. If you just wipe the blade down once, it doesn't give a real pretty result, but it's enough to see the hardened zone.

Now I really want a Karka blade. I've heard great things about the workmanship, fit and finish, and now it sounds like they have a great heat treat too. Haven't seen too many lately...



Well, then you get an increase of several orders of magnitude in hardness, wear resistance, and toughness. But only if you get them down to 10 degrees below absolute zero - don't go thinking that any old liquid nitrogen will work.


Doing a etch more then once can show you more then what the first one alone will. The Fox Folly in the thread I linked to was etched three times and each time it showed more of the hardened areas and the differences between them. It is not nessecary to bring something to that low of a temp to get some advantages from cryo. Makers often use dry Ice and Acetone as a home brew cryo and that only gets down to -90 F or so. Liquid nitrogen works better then the dry ice combo but you can get benefits at "warmer" temps.
 
I've tried the multiple heating/etching before, when I wanted something to look really nice. The extra etches helped a lot to bring out definition and more subtle effects in the transition zone, but didn't really show that much more than the first one.

Mark Nelson said:
It is not nessecary to bring something to that low of a temp to get some advantages from cryo. Makers often use dry Ice and Acetone as a home brew cryo and that only gets down to -90 F or so. Liquid nitrogen works better then the dry ice combo but you can get benefits at "warmer" temps.

My comment there was a joke, referring to some of the hype that's out there. I don't think you CAN get colder than absolute zero... It's actually impossible to even reach absolute zero.

As for Liquid Nitrogen vs. Dry Ice more seriously, I would say that LN is probably easier to use, but having the deep cryo LN treatment hasn't been conclusively proved to give better results than regular cold treatment. (oh boy, that comment could REALLY jack the thread.) Of course, there is much that we don't know about what is really going on in the steel at the deep cryo temperatures.

I was thinking of trying out dry ice and ethyl alcohol for a cold treatment, since I figure that the ethanol would not be as nasty as acetone.
 
Ethyl alcoho sounds like a good idea. Acetone is nasty. I have never tried either but would be interested in trying sometime. If you do give it a try please let us know the results. I guess it was more like 5, 4 thread jack... ;) :p :D
 
Khukuri Monster said:
Well, then you get an increase of several orders of magnitude in hardness, wear resistance, and toughness. But only if you get them down to 10 degrees below absolute zero - don't go thinking that any old liquid nitrogen will work.

Okay, then...how about a Slurpee? I couldn't give you an exact figure, but they're pretty cold.

Ferric chloride gives an attractive etch if one takes the time to do it multiple times but I'm not always in the mood to put in the work. If I just want something quick and dirty to show me what I need to see, I opt for rust remover. It produces some pretty bad fumes and will do some damage if you're not careful but a little goes a long way and it's fast.

I've pretty much given up on vinegar. It's even slower than ferric chloride and doesn't look nearly as well IMO.

I believe that the method used to remove the oxides after etching is at least as important as the etchant used, if not moreso. I've used, or use, worn #2000 grit sandpaper, Mother's billet polish, and Never Dull. (In my experience their aggressiveness follows in that order.) Mother's doesn't seem to scratch no matter how much force is applied. They all give different results. More experimentation is in order.

As a rule, I always heat the blade. The last step in my degreasing procedure is a good washdown with the hottest water that the tap will produce. I keep it up until the blade steams and the water evaporates quickly.
 
Satori said:
Okay, then...how about a Slurpee? I couldn't give you an exact figure, but they're pretty cold.

Ferric chloride gives an attractive etch if one takes the time to do it multiple times but I'm not always in the mood to put in the work. If I just want something quick and dirty to show me what I need to see, I opt for rust remover. It produces some pretty bad fumes and will do some damage if you're not careful but a little goes a long way and it's fast.

I've pretty much given up on vinegar. It's even slower than ferric chloride and doesn't look nearly as well IMO.

I believe that the method used to remove the oxides after etching is at least as important as the etchant used, if not moreso. I've used, or use, worn #2000 grit sandpaper, Mother's billet polish, and Never Dull. (In my experience their aggressiveness follows in that order.) Mother's doesn't seem to scratch no matter how much force is applied. They all give different results. More experimentation is in order.

As a rule, I always heat the blade. The last step in my degreasing procedure is a good washdown with the hottest water that the tap will produce. I keep it up until the blade steams and the water evaporates quickly.
If you havent tried it, you can use very well lubricated (eg. oil) wet/dry 2500 grit paper. Ive also had decent results with #0000 steel wool almost immediately after the etch. If you let the oxides sit for a bit (a few days lets say), it wont do much, but a little oil right after you neutralize the acids it works ok. Ive pretty much given up on polishing pastes, works but I tend to like the little extra hmpphhh 2500 grit gives removing oxides.
 
When you guys finish your slurpees could you test the hardness of various blades outside their sweet spots?

(that's gentle teasing and a request; It's good to have men of science here but please give some numbers we can use....please?)

respectfully,
munk
 
Cryogens:

Having worked daily with crygenically trapped high vacuum lines, maintained liquid helium cryostats for super conducting magnets, and employed various cold baths, I can offer the following comments.

Dry ice + solvent:

Basically any cheap solvent will do the job, as long as it doesn't freeze.
Acetone is commonly used because it is cheap, and doesn't get viscous when it is cooled. Also, if it gets slopped around, it readily evaporates. Downside, is it dissolves plastics and being quite volatile, smells a lot.

Isopropyl alcohol gets almost syrupy when used, and spillage doesn't evaporate as readily. Foaming is a little less violent if dry ice is added to a bath that has warmed up and consumed all the dry ice. Isopropyl alcohol is compatable with a greater variety of containers like insulated picnic coolers, etc.

Haven't used ethanol, isopropyl was always more readily available, and there aren't any tax stamp, de-naturing issues. Build up of water ice is minimized, because the water dissolves in these solvents. You don't want something to get stuck in a bunch of water ice.

There many cold bath concoctions between dry-ice temp and ice temp. They are basically slushes of frozen solvents which have been prepared by adding a judicious amount of dry ice or liquid nitrogen to the liquids. These must be consantly tended, and most of the solvents are not very nice.

Liquid nitrogen is pretty simple to use, (be warned that this causes instant frostbite...duh) if the following are considered:

Only use/store in appropriate containers that can't build up pressure.

Be aware that liquid nitorgen is very slightly colder than liquid oxygen. While unlikely in knife-treating, it is possible to condense liquid oxygen from the air.
What dissolves into a container of liquid nitrogen is little problem. But if some open, empty container gets cooled to liquid nitrogen temperature it is quite possible to condense relatively pure liquid oxygen. You definately don't want to do this.

For temperatures between liquid nitrogen, and ice or dry ice, a common procedure is to boil off the liquid nitrogen with a heater and use a thermostated heater coil to maintain the steam of gas at the desired temperature. This is easily adjustable, and avoids the hassles of frozen slushes. The same procedure employing liquid helium is the only way that I know off to maintain temperatures between liquid helium and liquid nitrogen.

Thermostatted heavy-duty immersion refrigerator coils are also used to maintain baths between dry ice and ice temperatures.

Course this equipment ain't cheap.

Forget about using liquid helium, that is a whole 'nuther ball game, and unless demonstrably qualified and properly equipped I doubt that any vender will provide it. Seriously it is not a simple extension of using liquid nitrogen.

Hope this helps.
 
Firkin, do you remember what the non sweet-spot edge on khukuris was proving out to be on the Rockwell scale? Was anyone measuring that when you were here more frequently or has it rarely been looked at?


munk
 
Dunno, Frankly, dont remember there being much beyond the "file skating".

I think one would have to test a bunch of etched khuks all over to build up any clear picture. If a consistnet correlation between a standardized etching method and measured hardness pattern can't be established, all bets are off. And this might prove to be impossible (too much data scatter), given all the variations in water pour, blade thickness, kami bias/variation/mood, etc..

Testing just a couple of khuks and etching some more with a bunch of different procedures isn't particularly informative IMO. The variations in production are already essentially unquantifiable, (and in some cases unknown, at least to us) failure to really control methodology at this end practically guarantees meaningless data (as opposed to information).

Maybe a lower boundary might be established by studying defective khuks, but given the severe disconnect between production and failure, the information is useless from a practical point of view, unless the same studies can be correlated to the prodution of the defective knife. Which is impossible given the current set-up.

It's possible to overquantify, and misquantify.

As Yvsa is fond of saying, "Pretty is is pretty does".

I might add, "...and not as something else measured."
 
Thanks to all of you for our continued education.

The Cantina always has a huge selection of learned people from all walks of life. That so many with so different a view can come together in an atmosphere of belonging is outstanding. Being able to share information is a key component of progress. You must have a place where fear and attack is under the rule of intelligence and compassion. We don't brook destruction.


Firkin, if you read this, can you please email me at munk@ttc-cmc.net ???

I need to talk to you.


munk
 
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