Khukuri Fighting Techniques?

Howard Wallace said:
Conversations of a similar nature with Master at Arms James Keating led me to the design of L3 in the Liberty series. Mr. Keating's large knife fencing styles are heavily influenced by historical western techniques, but he had arrived at conclusions very similar to those you expressed. I believe L3 addresses them for the fencer. However the market is small and the construction is complex and non-traditional so this concept may never see wide scale production.
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The market might be small, but I suspect that forumites here would snap them up if available. Do you think we'll be seeing some of these blades as DOTDs in the foreseeable future? I particularly like the L1 model.
 
Yep Howard, the Liberty series by adding the forward curving guards gives a much more defensive way to catch attacks and initiate a prise de fer (where you take control of the opponents blade a form of beat) But it still has the shape that kind of destroys your wrist supination/pronation. If you try to move the blade around the axis running the length of the blade the weight of the drop slows moves that require circular movement like that, say a moulinet. Still the guard does resolve one of the biggest lacks for fencing I would love to see more of the Liberties be made. I think while the market is small, I also think the small market would buy up a small run of these. Once things stabilize and they have the time and materials to work on some special projects I would love to see some of these made.
 
Each new fencing tool must be understood for its own potential. It is a mistake to attempt to use something as something else it is not.

When exploring a tool it pays to maintain openness to new ways and novel approaches.

Musashi's carved oar was never a sword.
 
Very True! An extremely good point. However, after over half a century of specializing in a specific style, the question becomes is it more beneficial to attempt to fit the tool to the skill or to attempt to learn a skill for the tool. If someone has always been open to new ways and novel approaches does it limit their ability in depth of focus on each item? Sort of the Jack of all Trades, Master of none question. Does it behoove someone to always keep an open mind or at some point is it beneficial to narrow the focus. I maintain focus on 1 style and while I always learn small things I can add the main focus is always based on how it interacts with the main focus. In my opinion neither is right or wrong. But they do present totally different results. If the parameters are who is best at 1 thing the narrow focus will always win. If he parameters are based on who can complete the majority of different types of tasks the shallow but wide focus will be better. I think the world needs both types equally.
 
Shavru said:
Yep Howard, the Liberty series by adding the forward curving guards gives a much more defensive way to catch attacks and initiate a prise de fer (where you take control of the opponents blade a form of beat) But it still has the shape that kind of destroys your wrist supination/pronation. If you try to move the blade around the axis running the length of the blade the weight of the drop slows moves that require circular movement like that, say a moulinet....
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Shavru:

This might be true of the L3 model, but the L1 and L2 don't have that drop in the blade shape. My favorite, the L1, is a bit wide for the kind of movement that you mention, but no drop. The L2 has a fairly slim, straight shape that might be even better.
 
Regarding blade play with a Kukri;
I can see how one says it's harder than with a lighter blade and one more balanced towards the handle. However totally ruling it out seems a bit close minded. Maybe people think of super thin dueling blades bending and swishing around like in some old Zorro movies when they hear the word "fencing"?

I've seen traditional European and Japanese blades one handed and two handed heavier and more forward balanced than even my biggest Kukri. They are less agile but admitedly do offer more reach. 4feet1inch with a 2.5feet Katana blade and 3feet2inch with my 13inch Kukri blade.

The Kukri has an edge and if you aren't fighting oak trees you don't need to over commit and swing it like a baseball bat with bad recovery times. The edge will do the work for you even if you don't connect to the target with full force. Also a bat would have to be aimed well since there is only little energy towards the hand and lots towards its tip. A Kukri cuts along its whole edge and thus needs less aim and less power.

Keeping this in mind you can do lots of work from your wrist without much effort.
For comparison my 2 katana balance 7 and 8 inch in front of the guard. My heaviest Kukri 3.5inch. It is also lighter and needs only one hand. Whatever fencing one can do with a Katana is easily within the Kukris possibilities if one only drops the notion of thinking of it as brute force axe.

For fun I was just right now in our garage holding one of my Katana one handed at head height and swinging it from the wrist from the right ear of a target to the left one and back. After 55 times I could feel my muscles. Right after that with slightly tired arms alread I did the same with the ASTK. It did 60 plus and lost count since it was much faster (almost twice) and nimble than the Katana which is heavier and has its balance point more forward.
 
Your comment Jens brings back to mind something I'd been wondering about lately. There are recorded instances during the British Burmese campaign of WWII where Gurkhas as part of the Chindit Rifles got into fights at such close quarters that it was kukri versus sword. I don't think there are any detailed records of these engagements, but it makes me wonder what kukri versus gunto was like.
 
I've read an account of a Japanese officer killing several Gurkhas until an NCO finally got him, and another where several troops were killed by a Japanese officer and the remaining Gurkhas just fragged the guy.
The weight of the khuk is only a problem if you're not strong enough for that particular knife-same with any weapon.
I am veeeery leery of any trapping guard-at keast in Filipino/Indo arts everybody is already trying to take your hand off...any fussing around trying to catch a blade seems a little too fine-motor-skill for my liking when the adrenaline is up.
 
OK Folks,
all of my mental struggles regarding which knife to purchase from HI are put to rest. As soon as Mrs. Martino brings the L2 to market, I will put in my order. This has been a facinating thread and I hope that it keeps going for a long time. Beserker style fighting is great for younger people but not so much for older folk. Technique and form along with sound tactics brings this martial discipline within the reach of people not so blessed with youth, strength and agility.
Alan
 
yipchoy said:
OK Folks,
all of my mental struggles regarding which knife to purchase from HI are put to rest. As soon as Mrs. Martino brings the L2 to market, I will put in my order. This has been a facinating thread and I hope that it keeps going for a long time. Beserker style fighting is great for younger people but not so much for older folk. Technique and form along with sound tactics brings this martial discipline within the reach of people not so blessed with youth, strength and agility.
Alan
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As far as I know, the L2 is a special order item. If you want one you'll have to email Yangdu to place an order for one.
 
Ummm...the L2 may never be made again, but then, we have some very talented Kamis right now, and a special order could very well be put in as Scara suggested.
 
Hi cul4u01,
I took your advice and e-mailed Mrs. Martino and she replied that the shop is closed now for the current festival but that after they reopen, they will try to make the replicas. I am assuming that she was referring to the L2 that I wrote her about. Anyway she told me to check back in December.
Alan
 
Scara said:
Your comment Jens brings back to mind something I'd been wondering about lately. There are recorded instances during the British Burmese campaign of WWII where Gurkhas as part of the Chindit Rifles got into fights at such close quarters that it was kukri versus sword. I don't think there are any detailed records of these engagements, but it makes me wonder what kukri versus gunto was like.
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That sounds interesting.
The only thing I know for sure is that I wouldn't want to meet either in a fight. I guess both have excellent marketing.

If I know there is a fight and it really can be only a Japanese sword or a Kukri I'd pick the Japanese one. It's hard to beat reach and I'm more familiar with it. If it's a tiny house then probably a short sword or Kukri so swinging the shorter one dosnt get you stuck in the wall. Though even in confined spaces, stabbing with a longer blade while the shorter one has no way around you still sounds good.

Predicting who would win in a real military conflict with just two types of swords is hard.
Anecdotes are often the only information we have. Without knowing the details they don't tell much. Where the Gurkha surprise attacked? Were they suffering from diarea? Maybe they were rookies in combat while the Japanese had been fighting for years? Maybe the guy decimating a few Gurkhas by himself was an exceptional sword master not really representative of his whole military?

Just a feeling so dont take it for much.The WW2 Japanese soldiers seemed a mere shadow of the stories one reads about ancient Samurai. The Gurkhas however seem even today be tough guys on average. High altitude training and swinging Kuks from birth. True the Japanese Officers still trained a lot with swords but the average guy in the Japanese army most likely didn't.

Division against Division I would think Japan has the advantage. Modern weapons lots of actual combat experience and leadership and supply overhead are just too important.

But on a platoon or even company level things change. Cut of from supply all by themselves I guess the Nepali mountain boys will be better off finding food water and using the terrain to their advantage than Japanese soldiers depending too much on their higher ups and supplies. Pillaging local villages might be a way though.

If it's really just fight sword vs Kukri and it's an average Gurkha vs an average Japanese soldier who gets a military sword handed to him and everything else is equal. The Gurkha should have the advantage in my opinion.
Maybe he would be even better if he had a Katana and the Japanese soldier the Kukri?
:-p
 
Well, from what I know the Chindits had lots of issues with malaria, diarrhea, and other tropical illnesses so that would be a point against them. Supplies also tended to be short. I seem to recall reading that Chindits were given a rather significant period of time between incursions behind Japanese lines just to give them time to get their weight back up and recover from the diseases of the last incursion. The only anecdotes I've heard about kukri vs. gunto fights are the ones JW just shared. The Japanese officers certainly had longer weapons, though I wonder how useful that would have been given that the quarters were already too close to use firearms, though it could have been a matter of everyone going to blades because they were too close and intermingled, making fratricide too likely if they used firearms. The kukris were certainly more useful than the swords, since Burmese jungle is dense, and a kukri works for getting through jungle. I type this while sitting in a geography of Southeast Asia class. Does it show?
 
in WWII on average you must remember that the officer class in the Japanese Military was similar to the British Army, in most cases it was still not a meritocracy but a version of their Aristocracy. Where most officers earned their rank by being born to hereditary nobility not by proof of competency. By the end of WWII that had been changing however there was still a lot of nobles in the officer ranks, who if you remember, their entire culture was based on the sword. Kazoku kept it's arms in fine sword swinging shape by doing their best to kill each other off and thereby advance the "house" in the game of politics. So your average Japanese officer spent his "youth" learning the ways of the sword then challenging each other to duels to the death. While towards the end of the war gunto were created that way by the hundreds. At the beginning of the war the majority of gunto swords were actually family swords that had been refitted with gunto fittings. The owners had spent their short lives to that point wearing and using that particular sword. So, it probably varied very widely the quality of the sword AND the quality of the swordsman from the beginning of the war to the end of the war and where in the middle you conducted this experiment.
 
Shavru said:
in WWII on average you must remember that the officer class in the Japanese Military was similar to the British Army, in most cases it was still not a meritocracy but a version of their Aristocracy. Where most officers earned their rank by being born to hereditary nobility not by proof of competency. By the end of WWII that had been changing however there was still a lot of nobles in the officer ranks, who if you remember, their entire culture was based on the sword. Kazoku kept it's arms in fine sword swinging shape by doing their best to kill each other off and thereby advance the "house" in the game of politics. So your average Japanese officer spent his "youth" learning the ways of the sword then challenging each other to duels to the death. While towards the end of the war gunto were created that way by the hundreds. At the beginning of the war the majority of gunto swords were actually family swords that had been refitted with gunto fittings. The owners had spent their short lives to that point wearing and using that particular sword. So, it probably varied very widely the quality of the sword AND the quality of the swordsman from the beginning of the war to the end of the war and where in the middle you conducted this experiment.
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Does one want to to compare exceptional Japanese officers or the Japanese soldier in general?

If you focus on the few best swordsman / some officers in the Japanese army then it's meaningless if they kill lots of Gurkhas unless these particular Gurkhas have also been the best Kukri masters of their forces.

In a fair comparison you'd have the average Gurkha face the average Japanese soldier.
Average Gurkhas who all (!) are used to less "civilization" and grew up in rough mountains with Kukris part of everyday life.
Average Japanese soldiers who were mostly drafted from all parts of society. Bakers, shoemakers, janitors, university students and yes a very few experienced swordmen.
 
Kukri vs Kukri
Accounts would be another interesting thing to analyse and study.

I can't imagine that in Nepal where everybody and his grandma edc Kukris 24/7 that there are not any fights where a Kukri meets a Kukri.
How does such a fight usually end and are there any patterns as to what kind of fighting or technique succeed?
 
Jens Schuetz said:
Does one want to to compare exceptional Japanese officers or the Japanese soldier in general?

If you focus on the few best swordsman / some officers in the Japanese army then it's meaningless if they kill lots of Gurkhas unless these particular Gurkhas have also been the best Kukri masters of their forces.

In a fair comparison you'd have the average Gurkha face the average Japanese soldier.
Average Gurkhas who all (!) are used to less "civilization" and grew up in rough mountains with Kukris part of everyday life.
Average Japanese soldiers who were mostly drafted from all parts of society. Bakers, shoemakers, janitors, university students and yes a very few experienced swordmen.
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I'd say it's not an unfair comparison, since your average Japanese soldier didn't carry a sword. Swords were officer weapons in the Japanese military. I don't know what Japanese enlisted men carried, though I wouldn't be too surprised if those stationed to areas like Burma carried machetes.
 
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