Khukuri vs Smatchet

marcinek: Well, I'm looking for something that would work well in the woods AND for "What if?" use. The way I figure it, I'd probably go with an axe I designed for an all-around woodland tool (seeing as the axe can do everything a knife can do & everything a knife can't do). It's not well-designed for combative stuff, though.

I'm looking at the big knife as something different to try & for a good combative thing to have. Figure it might come into play for clearing brush sometimes, too. Actually, I have an idea for a modified Spetsnaz shovel that would be a good all-around blade that would probably be the most versatile "one tool option" of all of them.

Bigfattyt: That Kershaw looks nice. Is it full-tang? It definitely seems like it would come out of the sheath fairly quickly, but might not have the hooking ability in a combative role. The way I look at it, a gun is a good thing to have if you have it- but in a home-invasion or some such, a large blade might calm things down one way or another. I watched something recently about a guy going after some people that broke into his house & he used a katana- drove them away, but he started getting threats & had to move with his family. Not ideal, but it seems to have worked out pretty well.

Basically, I'm looking at it in three ways: Theoretical, Combative, Wilderness
 
Kukris have been used for every function you could conceivably ask a knife to do. Some vary in weight, size, and structure, but that is what they are. Some are optimized for combat, all are capable of utility.

Smatchets, by and large, were created for combat. The leaf blade shape has a well known combat history through the ages. That said, plenty of leaf shaped blades are used for utility.

More importantly, if you never make it out to the woods, why do you want a woods knife?

If you're going to buy one, you'll need to practice with it anyway.

My proposal is- get a smatchet machete. Get a kukri machete. Oil them because you sound like you'll never use them. Wonder about which would be better at the end of the world. Take one out, swing it around, imagine yourself being a bad@ss. Put it back. Take out the other, swing around imagining yourself a bad@ss. Put it back. You have a successful formula that will keep you well til you die.

The other proposal is, quit the "theoretical" stuff. Buy one. Play with it. See how it feels. If it feels like it could be better, put it up for sale on the exchange. Buy the other. Play with it. Compare. If you liked the first one better, buy a new one.

If you cant afford the ~$50 for both machetes, or can't afford to buy a mass produced kukri for $50 or nicer one for $100 and then eat a $20 loss for shipping and not being new (down to $80) and, I don't know, $200 for a Smatchet type (total cost: $220), then you're way better off figuring out how you can get more expendable income and making your time more valuable rather than playing speculate forever.

This D&D +1 dexterity -1 power stuff is ridiculous.

Zero
 
Zero_Time: It's not that I'll NEVER use it, just that I don't have the opportunity right now. With both tools, I can pretty well figure out what they'd be good for & what they would be for myself- I was just starting a discussion about two interesting blades that I've never had the opportunity to use- mostly for conversational purposes (and to catch any details I might have missed). Besides, it's good to have some stuff ready to go for whatever "What if?" situations might arise (and seeing as how disasters are handled SO well in the US, there's no reason to presume it wouldn't be an extended situation or one that got violent sometimes).

To be clear: I don't figure that mentally encompassing something will give me sway over it or anything like that, I just wanted to "talk" & familiarize myself with some of the details of using these tools.

Not for nothing, but it sounds like you've got a bit of an attitude about me not having pre-existing experience with these blades & asking about their pluses & minuses ahead of buying them. Just thought I'd mention it.
 
Wolfeye said:
Zero_Time: It's not that I'll NEVER use it, just that I don't have the opportunity right now. With both tools, I can pretty well figure out what they'd be good for & what they would be for myself- I was just starting a discussion about two interesting blades that I've never had the opportunity to use- mostly for conversational purposes (and to catch any details I might have missed). Besides, it's good to have some stuff ready to go for whatever "What if?" situations might arise (and seeing as how disasters are handled SO well in the US, there's no reason to presume it wouldn't be an extended situation or one that got violent sometimes).

To be clear: I don't figure that mentally encompassing something will give me sway over it or anything like that, I just wanted to "talk" & familiarize myself with some of the details of using these tools.

Not for nothing, but it sounds like you've got a bit of an attitude about me not having pre-existing experience with these blades & asking about their pluses & minuses ahead of buying them. Just thought I'd mention it.
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I have attitude over people asking about SHTF. Most of their thoughts are really immature and not that well thought out, thus it's boring and obnoxious. SHTF means all sorts of things. Zombies? If you hunker down for long enough, their skulls will get softer with decomposition and exposure. Piercing a Zombie skull WELL after the initial infection will likely take LESS force than a normal human skull, thus the needs CHANGE (of course, a freshly made zombie WILL still have a hard skull, but if you hunker down long enough, those will be very uncommon).

Invading formal army after an EMP attack has a totally different tool set and needs. Especially considering HOW they managed to overcome US forces, you'll have to specify what they did that defeated the most expensive, well-armed, and most tested military in the world to figure out what YOU could do that wouldn't fall victim.

People talk about SHTF and don't lay out parameters and it's really ignorant and annoys me. I deal with this A LOT.

As for testing: I don't really like giving advice to someone several months away from them being able to test it. Ask when you're in a position to actually test, not 5 years from when you'll be able to. Things can change, steel composition can make some unviable designs viable; there may be instructors that teach smatchet use for everything outlined above that for the average user make the smatchet a MUCH better choice from ease of instruction.

Information can get outdated. Ask when you're actually going to buy/use, not 5 years beforehand.

Besides, the more I find out what I like, the more I find it differs from other people's choices. Playing theoretical mind games about weapon or tool choices NEVER survives contact with reality for me. This is been there, done that. The only way to answer the question is to answer it for yourself.

Weight forward tools like Kukris really depend on what the person is comfortable with. Getting the right strike zone, getting comfortable with the range of hitting the sweet spot. Some people get it and like it; some people don't.

Finally, the "one tool to rule them all" is really, really non-optimal. Since you're choosing between degrees of what sucks the least, it comes down to personal preference every time; and that personal preference CAN depend on experience with said tool or similar tools. If they were AMAZING at doing EVERYTHING, it would be a no brainer. Because it is what is the least bad option, it's way, way more personal and subjective. I've been there, done that. You're not going to answer the question in any satisfactory way til you do that.

Zero

edit: Also, TECHNIQUE matters WAY more than the tool itself. Optimal tool design<Good technique with non-optimal. Thus your best bet is getting a tool and getting good with it. I've played the theoretical what if; then done things, my expectations based off surveys and logic was wrong, or WAY less important than figuring out how to make things work. The point is, many people come here expecting the tool to solve the problem, and not the brain/technique. It never works that way.
 
Well, if it's a discussion that bothers you- why bother being involved in it? To speak metaphorically: If you feel blackpowder rifles are useless wastes of time, why would you get into a discussion of makeshift ways of maintaining them? Regardless of the conditions of doing so?

In the pursuit of satisfying intellectual/academic curiosity as well as getting advice on tool/weapon selection, I asked a question that covers ground you don't like. I don't see how that's obnoxious. As for ingnorance, of course there's ignorance. That's why I asked the question: to find out information that I don't know.

The "What If?" condition that I'm referencing is broad in scope because things fluctuate. It might be that things are unexpected & unforseen- but when you finally DO see it, you deduce that it would be useful (just like having extra cash or a lighter). I realize that there are different capacities one might be working in, but I was hoping to better establish what capacities that these two blades can be used in effectively. To be more specific, think more like that movie Defiance mixed with Hurricane Katrina. Best I can do for an approximation of circumstances.
 
Wolfeye said:
Well, if it's a discussion that bothers you- why bother being involved in it? To speak metaphorically: If you feel blackpowder rifles are useless wastes of time, why would you get into a discussion of makeshift ways of maintaining them? Regardless of the conditions of doing so?
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It's not discussion. It's the dumb ones where people don't cover WHY or parameters. Both tools, as pointed out, are good generalist tools; to make a choice between two generalist tools you need to define the criteria, don't you?

The blackpowder discussion, if couched right, is not a waste of time. Tell me that it's for a post-apocalyptic world, virtually all cartridges have been expended, you know how to make black powder, and how do you maintain your blackpowder arms? That's fine.

Wolfeye said:
In the pursuit of satisfying intellectual/academic curiosity as well as getting advice on tool/weapon selection, I asked a question that covers ground you don't like. I don't see how that's obnoxious. As for ingnorance, of course there's ignorance. That's why I asked the question: to find out information that I don't know.
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And I gave you an answer. Both have widespread usage across various cultures, both have a long enough history being used for generalist tasks that there's NO CLEAR WINNER WITHOUT EXTRA PARAMETERS OR PERSONAL PREFERENCE. Apparently you didn't like the answer.

Wolfeye said:
The "What If?" condition that I'm referencing is broad in scope because things fluctuate. It might be that things are unexpected & unforseen- but when you finally DO see it, you deduce that it would be useful (just like having extra cash or a lighter).
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As previously stated, you're not comparing a whaling knife to a bowie; you're comparing two tools that have been used for virtually everything you're talking about, so it really depends on specifics, or what you're comfortable with.

Wolfeye said:
I realize that there are different capacities one might be working in, but I was hoping to better establish what capacities that these two blades can be used in effectively. To be more specific, think more like that movie Defiance mixed with Hurricane Katrina. Best I can do for an approximation of circumstances.
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Not to be pedantic, but which side of Kat are you on? A looter? A cop? A left behind resident that needs to evacuate your structure in the middle of the storm? A rescuer? Again, different needs. My experience from personal friends in Katrina is a strong bladder and a sense of when to leave are the best tools.

If you're looking to break into buildings to hide or loot supplies, that's incredibly important and something you didn't say. I think a Kukri would be FAR better for urban entry- if you're carrying one tool. THINK through WHAT you're doing during the situation.

Are you breaking into houses? Being a bloodthirsty rambo just killing people? Foraging for food? Trying to build shelters? How long is this? 1 year? 10 years? 50 years?

You might very well be better off with something you feel comfortable resharpening! I mean, if this is SHTF, a dull weapon is pretty useless. Are you good at sharpening recurve blades like kukris?

Outline your 10 top activities you can see yourself doing or needing it for. Spend 10 minutes thinking through, then respond. If you had played D&D, you'd understand, the range of possible uses is infinite, thus no good answer without defining for us.

Zero
 
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I see- the issue is the lack of specificity. Well, your last post is something that got me thinking (particularly about that urban entry- by the way, why would you say the khukuri is so much better? A stronger tip, perhaps?). For a top list of uses:

(1 & 2) Combative use in the "melee" sense- whatever kind of bullshit someone might be thinking of pulling in the middle of whatever panicking/rioting/looting is likely to seem like less of a good idea if someone whips one of those out in a serious way. The use of it would be pretty versatile & intense, so it's not all intimidation.

(3) Urban entry. Stuck doors to cars & buildings, as well as drawers/windows/cabinets/cases & whatever other things might be openable with that.

(4-13) Wilderness uses. Carving, chopping, splitting, clearing brush, scythe uses (ex: cutting bundles of long grass for making mats), making holes (in wood or in the ground), fire making (scuffing up tinder with the back & making sparks off a ferro rod, striking sparks with stone, maybe rounding spindles with the curve in the middle, possibly more), shaping wood (ex: using it like a drawknife).

I figure this would something I'd want to last for as long as possible, but let's say the situation would be at least a full season & up to a year. Don't figure resharpening would be a problem, especially with a sharpening rod (easy enough to find & something I have to begin with).

I wouldn't be a "bloodthirsty rambo just killing people," but figure that might be something that needs "handling" at some point- whether they're super-skilled or just at a point of basically being rabid/reckless and/or deperate. Again, I figure they'd go & try to "flex" themselves in a different direction if a couple of their guys lost something important. A major concern is someone trying to feel solid & comfort themselves by rolling up on me & mine or something like that. Not that this would necessarily only come from rioters or people that snapped from losing their shit, I figure I might have to use this in the course of protecting myself from whatever official response that "means well" or "wants to help." I really don't care what that would be if someone else in a different situation did that, since there's no exhcange of situation through imagination. I figure a "bad guy" can get treated like one, instead of a substitute- which is, in itself, an injustice.
 
You should always bring a knife to a gun fight. Just wait until the shooter runs out of bullets, you know like on the Walking Dead show. :p
 
Wolfeye said:
shaping wood (ex: using it like a drawknife).
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There goes the Smatchet...unless you don't really like the fingers on your non-dominant hand.
There you go. Now you have your decision. No more THAC0. Lol
 
LadyEarth: I figure it's good to ALSO bring a knife to a gun fight. Honestly, I wasn't planning on not having a gun- but it's not something produced by the body or anything & it might not be something that you have. Then again, it might be that you're not dealing with someone with a gun or that they're fairly close. Don't forget how some people have a gun, but have no shots & are just bluffing. Might be that they're not bluffing, but they get startled & you can clear the few feet of distance that might be between you.

AntDog: Actually, there's a good trick to using a knife like that (or a regular one like a Mora) in that way. You stab the point into a stick & use it like a handle to pull back on the blade (obviously you reverse the edge so it's facing toward you if it's a single-edged knife). Also, what does THACO mean?

Keep in mind, I was just trying to discuss things conversationally & maybe get some use out of it. I figured people here would have some input about what each of these blades would work like.
 
Wolfeye said:
I see- the issue is the lack of specificity. Well, your last post is something that got me thinking (particularly about that urban entry- by the way, why would you say the khukuri is so much better? A stronger tip, perhaps?). For a top list of uses:

(1 & 2) Combative use in the "melee" sense- whatever kind of bullshit someone might be thinking of pulling in the middle of whatever panicking/rioting/looting is likely to seem like less of a good idea if someone whips one of those out in a serious way. The use of it would be pretty versatile & intense, so it's not all intimidation.

(3) Urban entry. Stuck doors to cars & buildings, as well as drawers/windows/cabinets/cases & whatever other things might be openable with that.

(4-13) Wilderness uses. Carving, chopping, splitting, clearing brush, scythe uses (ex: cutting bundles of long grass for making mats), making holes (in wood or in the ground), fire making (scuffing up tinder with the back & making sparks off a ferro rod, striking sparks with stone, maybe rounding spindles with the curve in the middle, possibly more), shaping wood (ex: using it like a drawknife).

I figure this would something I'd want to last for as long as possible, but let's say the situation would be at least a full season & up to a year. Don't figure resharpening would be a problem, especially with a sharpening rod (easy enough to find & something I have to begin with).

I wouldn't be a "bloodthirsty rambo just killing people," but figure that might be something that needs "handling" at some point- whether they're super-skilled or just at a point of basically being rabid/reckless and/or deperate. Again, I figure they'd go & try to "flex" themselves in a different direction if a couple of their guys lost something important. A major concern is someone trying to feel solid & comfort themselves by rolling up on me & mine or something like that. Not that this would necessarily only come from rioters or people that snapped from losing their shit, I figure I might have to use this in the course of protecting myself from whatever official response that "means well" or "wants to help." I really don't care what that would be if someone else in a different situation did that, since there's no exhcange of situation through imagination. I figure a "bad guy" can get treated like one, instead of a substitute- which is, in itself, an injustice.
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Glad you figured out my beefs. This is specific enough to work with.

I say kukri for urban entry because you have focused impact and mechanical leverage from the way you swing. The sweet spot is NOT the tip, but a little further down from it. Nevertheless, what a Kuk does that makes it so effective is CONCENTRATING force over a SMALL area. It's why backcuts on bowies are so scary. Concentrated force over small area=more effective. I think when it comes to chopping, a Kukri has proved itself time and again. When it comes to leveraging a door open, Kukris are differentially hardened- and for prying, you want SOFTER. Kukris are generally softer until you reach the sweet spot. So boom, there you go. Smatchets as far as I know are uniform hardness, thus making the tool aspect far worse. Swords and objects like them are NOT good for prying; a Chiruwa Ang Khola is to some degree. Pick up a pry bar, and conduct tests on the hardness. It's not that hard. Hard is brittle. Brittle breaks. Smatchet=fail at prying most things.

As far as agricultural uses, there are specific kukris used for just that. There are more martial effective designs (less curved, lighter thus faster) and more agricultural/woodsmen Kukris (heavier, more curved) but that is quibbling.

You say sharpening is easy... lol. Like I said, this is where my advice about getting a tool and playing with it comes into play. Kukris are a very different shape than most knives. EXPECT things to go awry and to be way harder than they should be. DON'T assume that your skills will transfer to something that radically different. I've played in the woods with a new tool that I *knew* other skills would transfer to. Turned out they didn't. Fun times.

I vote Kukri- IF you ACTUALLY get one and dull it from use and then actually put a good edge back on it in the real world.

But what trumps every vote here is you actually playing for a bit with the actual designs. I'm sure a .338 Lapua is an amazing round that can make shots that other rounds can't, but I don't have the experience that others do for making the extreme shots .338 can, so it's not worthwhile to me.

Zero
 
Wolfeye said:
AntDog: Actually, there's a good trick to using a knife like that (or a regular one like a Mora) in that way. You stab the point into a stick & use it like a handle to pull back on the blade (obviously you reverse the edge so it's facing toward you if it's a single-edged knife). Also, what does THACO mean?
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I know the stick trick man, but I wouldn't dare try it with a Smatchet. It would be a good way to slip and impale your hand. The Smatchet is a great fighting knife. I'd imagine it would make an ok woods blade too, and as a bonus, it's got 2 edges in case one side gets dull.
THAC0 = To Hit Armor Class 0 (zero). In D&D, some weapons improve your chances to hit an enemy.
 
Also, if you hang out here on the forums a while you'll find out that "Smatchet" is the correct answer to EVERY question. :D
 
Yeah, it DOES seem to be well-thought-of. I guess that's because it's a regular knife, but beefed-up & double-edged enough to make things interesting without sacrificing much in the woodworking department. I think it's awesome, but I'll probably go with the "khuk" first.
 
For a weapon. Smatchet.(for me that is)

It looks similar to the Greek/Spartan short sword, the Xiphos.
The Khukuri has a bit similar shape as the Kopis.
Those were good when hacking down when sitting on a horse.

The leaf shaped Smatchet/Xiphos has a nice balance where stabbing and hacking are both easily done.
Easier to wield.
The Khukuri has its fame from the Khurka's , but those guys grew up with it like a farmer with a hayfork.
They are very familiar with it.

The Smatchet has a similarity with the Philippine Barong.
And those Moro warriors were feared as any other fighter. And were known for chopping up...
You have to hold them, use them a bit.
Test it on different stuff.
And then your unconscious will tell you which is better for you.
The answer will come up .
 
A smatchet is typically double edged, right. That is the whole point of a smatchet. If you don't double edge it, then it is just a bolo or khukuri with a straight grip. So there is no way a smatchet wins this one in the utility sense If you want a fighter then the smatchet will be quick. For me the Khuk wins. Of course as an all around blade you will never beat a straight blade or bolo in my opinion.
 
A bolo or standard/average machete chops up people just as well if it's about that.
We can all see that on bestgore.com how functional machetes are in Brazil to hack people into pieces.
They split skulls and hack of limbs without a problem.

I think the one who wields the blade is more of importance on the outcome of such a social encounter.
Skills, speed, agility, coördination,timing..
 
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