Khukuris in Eastern Himalayas

[kronckew]

the small 'dossum' (bhutanese dagger - not sure what the term for the sword is) is similar to mine, these also may be found in eastern tibet, but the traditional tibetan dagger is somewhat different. the lobed hilt shape on the bhutanese style ones is distinctive. as bhutan/tibet share borders, there is overlap, the tibetan sword generally has a trefoil pommel and is generally squarish in cross section. mine: (likely post ww2)

which is mono steel but has a differentially hardened edge. some of the older ones were 'hairpin' laminated steel, these were made apparently as late as the 1950's. more recent ones are generally made from imported car springs (like khukuri). the ones in plain wooden hilts and scabbards are the 'villager' models commonly carried by the workers and such, a tool and a weapon. the embossed metal puts it more recent than the older ones where the designs were generally cut or pierced.

as to teminology:

As for the term for these interesting daggers, I am not a linguist of course but I discovered the following:
"...every Bhutanese male regularly carries a knife, called a 'dossum', which he uses constantly in his daily chores".
- Bert Kerr Todd, in "Bhutan, the Land of the Thunder Dragon"
"National Geographic Magazine", December, 1952

tibetan/chinese dagger (with hairpin laminations) for comparison. this one is 18th c.

searching on tibet or bhutan on the ethnographic arms and armour forum will bring up a lot of info.

 

[sta94]

Hi Kronckew, thanks for the photos and additional info! :thumbup: Yeah, these daggers can be found all over the Tibetan-influenced areas. And yes, all Bhutanese in the less urban areas, even quite a few in the bigger towns, carry their 'dossums' with them everyday. In other areas I've also heard the knife being called a 'dhi' or something like that. Sucks not to know my own language well!

As for bigger swords, the most common term, both amongst Tibetans and Bhutanese, seems to be 'Patang.'

Here is an old soldier, in my wife's family for several generations, even been carried into battle by one of her great-grandfathers during the late 19th - early 20th century struggle for final control over the country. From what I gather these were medieval type battles - vicious close quarter fighting, lots of swords, shields, spears, archery, horses, minimal use of firearms.

The sword is currently with an uncle and I haven't seen it personally yet. Will post more photos & observations when I get to see it close-up.

Some accessories with the sword - pouches:

belt???

 

[sta94]

and now, to bring this thread back to khukuris

a clipping from a newspaper in Sikkim. The Nepali text above the khukuri display says, "Nepali jatiko hathiyar" means "weapon of the Nepali race."

Jorethang is a town in southern Sikkim and is famous for its annual 'mela' (fair) where folks from all over Sikkim and neighboring Darjeeling come to have a good time. Looks like the Sikkim Chettri community association, with its khukuri display on the forefront, won the top prize amongst all the stalls participating.

 

[kronckew]

i saw a rather nice sikkimese sword on the web recently, scabbard open one side, blade was laminated steel, double fullered ad a fairly rounded point. had a good drool over it, can't find it now. had an all wood grip similar to the bhutanese style.

 

[sta94]

Kronckew, did you mean this one?

Here's the site I got it from:
http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms-and-armour/o/Swords,-Knives-and-Daggers/1907.47.4/

Really neat piece! Don't see these around much at all. In the rural areas of Sikkim you'll see similar but much rougher ones carried by Lepcha (and also some Bhutia) villagers - like you mentioned above, all wood affairs with brass strips or bits of wire enclosing the blades in their open-face scabbards in similar fashion to the above sword.

 

[Nicholas]

While we're on the subject of Bhutan, have you seen any of those neat-o, two-piece bows that the Bhutanese use for archery? (I've seen some evidence that they get used in eastern Nepal, too.)

tibetan/chinese dagger (with hairpin laminations) for comparison. this one is 18th c.

I've seen some knives that look similar to that in some recent pictures: they were often parts of Mongolian eating sets, with chopsticks added!

 

[sta94]

While we're on the subject of Bhutan, have you seen any of those neat-o, two-piece bows that the Bhutanese use for archery? (I've seen some evidence that they get used in eastern Nepal, too.)

I've seen some knives that look similar to that in some recent pictures: they were often parts of Mongolian eating sets, with chopsticks added!

Oh man, I have a bunch of Bhutanese archery pictures that I took recently, have to upload them onto Photobucket first. Archery is the national sport in Bhutan, followed by Khuru or darts (not your usual variety seen in pubs and bars!).

The traditional bows are two-piece wooden units, but any Bhutanese with a bit of money will try & buy a modern compound hunting bow, the most popular one is from Hoyt USA. The Hoyt supplier in Queens, NYC is on a first-name basis with the entire Bhutanese Embassy staff!

I think I'll make a separate thread about archery and darts in Bhutan.

Re: Mongolian knives with chopsticks, Tibetans too use a similar setup. I have one that I got from my aunt who worked in Mongolia and China with the UN, unfortunately, it's currently in storage in NYC.

 

[Nicholas]

Oh man, I have a bunch of Bhutanese archery pictures that I took recently, have to upload them onto Photobucket first. Archery is the national sport in Bhutan, followed by Khuru or darts (not your usual variety seen in pubs and bars!).

So I've heard; that's part of why I asked. Of course, I only found out about this, after looking up archery in Nepal, and finding pics of Eastern Nepali with the same bows!!

The traditional bows are two-piece wooden units, but any Bhutanese with a bit of money will try & buy a modern compound hunting bow, the most popular one is from Hoyt USA. The Hoyt supplier in Queens, NYC is on a first-name basis with the entire Bhutanese Embassy staff!

I'd heard about the Bhutanese fondness for compounds (bleah!), but that hardly makes a good travel story, does it?

Re: Mongolian knives with chopsticks, Tibetans too use a similar setup.

......and the Japanese, I think. I'd heard about this, but didn't want to push my luck, since the Nepali don't use them at all!

I have one that I got from my aunt who worked in Mongolia and China with the UN, unfortunately, it's currently in storage in NYC.

No biggie; I can find plenty of pictures. To tell the truth, I'm thinking that this might be an interesting way to use a small karda: incorporate it into an eating set!

 

[kronckew]

chinese eating sets (trousse) like these are a popular collectors item, sadly the chinese cash in and have made reproduction ones that are suitably aged as antiques. the good ones again tend to have laminated steel blades.

tibetan/chinese ones have squared ends on the chopsticks, japanese ones have rounded or pointed ends on them, but are otherwise similar.

there was a TV show about a group of western athletes dragged around the world to participate in various martial competitions, spear throwing, stick fighting, etc. and one was bhutanese archery. they dressed in traditional bhutanese robes, including a sword, and use the bamboo 2 piece bows.
they lived as bhutanese during the training phase. the compitition training was shooting from one village to the next across a gorge at a small plank target a couple hundred yards away... like in horse shoes close also got points, a hit counted even more. the actual competition involved them marching about 30 miles to compete for real against another village, the women of the village 'encouraged' them in a cheer leading type exercise and got quite raunchy. anyhow one of the westerners won the contest for 'his' village by grazing the target and was the closest shot of the day. the other westerners also scored some points. everyone was deadly serious about the contest, it was not a rigged set up. some of the older wrinkled 150 year old bhutanese were better shots than the young ones, they were made of old shoe leather & tough as old boots from marching up and down mountains all their lives. didn't see any western bows there...

ah, found it, it's on this linky
well worth watching if you have access somewhere. sadly no longer available on the bbc iplayer site, it has some video clips at the site in the linky at the beginning of this paragraph...which are not working for me.

 

[sta94]

kronckew, thanks for info about the BBC show. I'd heard about it, but didn't know they went to Bhutan as well. I have to try and check it out sometime. Also interested in their India episode as they seem to have done kushti (traditional Indian wrestling). I do a bit of judo & grappling, but don't fancy my chances tangling with a tough pehlwan (wrestler) in those mud arenas anytime soon, esp. not these days when I'm waay out of shape and many years past my prime!

 

[sta94]

Pulled this from Facebook: a recent photo of His Majesty, the 5th King of Bhutan. You can see the neat Patang on his waist. Don't always get a clear shot like this because most times he - and other royalty, ministers, officials, who wear patangs as badges of their rank - also wear kamney, long shawl-like scarves (different color denoting different ranks) that cover up most of the sword. Wish I could see the blade though.

 

[kronckew]

that sword must be wonderful, i wonder if he trained in using it. in my searches i saw a picture of the young king shooting a compound bow. cool. i hope that bhutan keeps it's culture going strong rather than blending into the great world melting pot. modernization has it's bad points along with the good. hopefully he'll be smart enough to pick and choose. is he left handed or is it normal to carry the sword on the right like the romans did? a 'bayonet' style draw is not that difficult when using the right hand on the right side.

(or is the photo negative accidentally reversed )

interesting that bhutan is called the dragon kingdom, and my dossum has a dragon on it like this one:

i guess it's a popular motif.

i saw the LMS episode in india with the wrestlers. the westerners didn't do very well, even the big ones. looks hard. reminded me of turkish wretling where they coat themselves in olive oil. i think there are some video scenes on youtube (tho i could not find the bhutan episode there.)

 

[sta94]

Kronckew, they seem to carry the sword on the right side only. I think that's the 'official' carry-style when worn by royalty & high ranking officials as part of their rank-badges. Atleast, looks like it from what I see over here, as well as in old photos dating back to early 20th century. I will ask some people here and see if there's a reason for this.

As for training, I don't know how much swordsmanship training is imparted these days. And yeah, that dragon is a real popular motif, appears everywhere. The country is cautiously trying to enter the 21st century while keeping intact as much of its culture and old ways as possible. It is very aware, and wary, of what happened to its Himalayan neighbors (Nepal, Tibet, Sikkim) in the recent past with their sudden inclusion into the contemporary world. Not an easy path to take but the effort is on.

Yes, Indian traditional wrestling, or kushti, is similar to those practiced in Central Asia and the Near East too, but with a distinct flavor all its own. The practice is facing tough times though, with the old akharas (training gyms) having to contend with modern Olympic style training, as that's where the government funding comes from. If anybody is interested, they should check out these great DVDs put out by a SEAsian fighting arts researcher:

http://thephysicalbody.com/

http://thephysicalbody2.com/

And this scholarly look at the culture & background of kushti:
http://www.escholarship.org/editions/view?docId=ft6n39p104&brand=ucpress

I like my grappling arts hardcore!!!

 

[Ryan M]

Just going to bump this to add a link to a video about drawing swords from the right hip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94c88HfACfQ
This guy is great, all of his videos are highly recommended.

I've tried wearing my Dukti that way, and it's actually very practical. Especially since the draw is straight up, so you don't need an angled baldric, or to grab the scabbard with your left hand. It also puts you in a good position to parry and counterattack. A lot of the reconstructed Korean sword forms start you out in the exact same pose, with the sword in front of you, pointed straight down.

Tried to find the Bhutanese archery video on Youtube, but no luck.

 

[Nicholas]

Hmmm...I think I just lost my insistence on carrying my khuk for a cross-draw.

 

[sta94]

Hey Ryan M, thanks for the vid, pretty interesting!

Now, I've been meaning to make a post about this for a while now, just didn't get around to it until now, so here goes ... re: Bhutanese style right hip carry: after I made this thread, like a year or so ago, I got around talking to some people in Bhutan, as well as checking out some old photos. Well, the Bhutanese sword belts usually have two rings that end on the sides of your hips, check out this antique sword belt here, you can see the two rings:

It seems in the old days (like until the start of the 20th century), when carried into battle, the swords were hung from the right hip ring (blade facing front), and it was then lifted across your backside and the lower portion of the scabbard was tied to a tassel that hung from the other (left) ring on your sword belt. The sword then hung more or less horizontally across your lower back/backside behind you with the hilt sticking out your right (blade facing down). To unsheath you simply reached slightly behind you, grabbed the hilt and pulled the sword out of the scabbard in an outward motion behind you. If needed your left hand could assist by grabbing the scabbard-end sticking out of your left side.

I'm guessing this style of carry was also easier because it kept the sword securely tucked out of the way behind you instead of dangling at your side, especially when running up & down the mountain paths, negotiating thick underbrush, forests, what not.

It seems there were strict protocols on how the swords were to be carried when entering official buildings, etc. (untie from behind your back, hang on your side, etc.)

These days only government officials of specific rank, ministers and nobility wear these long swords in public as a mark of their rank, also Royal Bodyguards when dressed in traditional uniforms. The everyday utilitarian, plain short swords and knives, yes, everybody has one and they are widely carried, but these old battle swords mounted in specific styles, only the above-mentioned folks wear them in public. Of course, there is now no need to hitch up the sword behind you so the tassel on the left side of the belt remains as a decorative item only (it's pretty much always there though).

Another carry method I've seen is by traditional dancers doing a sort of warrior/welcome dance for dignitaries - these guys have sashes around their waist and simply tuck the swords through the sash behind them, blade facing down, hilt on the right side. Don't know yet if this was also an optional carry style in the old days, could well have been, as the common Tibetan style was to tuck their long swords diagonally in their sashes in front. Check out the pic below of these guys (I forget the exact term for these dancers, gotta ask my wife's relatives) welcoming a Minister to an official function:

 

[spiraltwista]

Thanks for more of your excelent on hand knowledge & expieriences Sta 94!

Spiral