Kitchen slicer

[Sonnydaze]

How sharp (what final grit) should you take the kitchen knife?
Slicing a tomato cleanly may require a sharp (3000 grit) blade edge, but then some folks feel that a slight roughness in the edge (600 grit) grabs better...
Does your choice conform to a DMT diamond sharpening stone grit of fine, extra fine, extra-extra fine? Is diamond paste on a strop necessary?
Does this assume a preferred steel hardness of HRC 60 and above?
Finally, should I look at Japanese knives as the best quality?
Thanks. Lots of material to consider, and it's much appreciated....

 

[Arathol]

I think blade geometry would be more important. A thin blade usually will slice well even when not as sharp as it could be.
What steel? Some steels will keep a thinly ground edge better than others, or may be more brittle and prone to chipping at higher hardness if ground too thin.

 

[l1ranger]

which kitchen knife and for what tasks in the kitchen.
for most of my kitchen work with 'nothing fancy' paring, boning, or chef's knives, something in the medium to fine range for a sharpening stone will do the trick.
slicing tomatoes and meats with a draw cut, a little bit of tooth comes in handy.
I can't think of anything I do on any sort of regular basis that requires a really refined edge. I have a couple of custom kitchen knives in 52100 at 60 to 62 hrc that I grab when the run of the mill knives aren't up to my liking.

 

[Khromo]

I've been working on this question of "best grit for the kitchen" for a while now. I've been experimenting with real food, and I have spoken to every pro chef who could spare me a moment or two. The answer has to address the technique used as well as the final grit!

Folks who rely on push-cutting most of their food would seem to be well served with a highly polished BESS-approved edge sharpened to the highest grit available. This will work, although you are probably crushing your food more than you have to, and slamming that shiny edge into your cutting board more than you should. I suspect most of those folks feel the need for a serrated bread knife. Test on a paper towel, loaf of bread, or brown onion skin and you will see that while the highly-polished edge might chisel its way through cheese well enough, fibrous or soft materials will be a challenge.

A lot of folks develop a gentle sawing technique, starting their stroke with a slow forward push and reversing when they run out of cutting edge. It is pretty easy and natural to learn. When using this technique, sharpening beyond hard Arkansas, or DMT fine, or 1,000 grit or so is starting to be counterproductive. This 800-1.2K edge will still shave hair and perform paper tricks up to a point, but most importantly it will cut through fish, meat, soft or hard bread, and the ultimate test of any kitchen knife, it will cleanly cut rotten tomatoes! Because as any professional chef will tell you, cutting fresh produce cleanly is a low bar. After the produce starts to rot, then you can see the difference between the butter knives and the lasers.

Unless you are performing eye surgery or preparing poisonous raw fish, I don't see any advantage to sharpening beyond 1.2-1.5K or so if you keep the blade just barely moving back and forth, using the whole cutting edge but not applying enough downward pressure to begin crushing the food.

I use mostly edge-leading strokes, so just two or three strokes per side on a strop about twice the grit of the finishing stone works for me. Any piece of paper seems to work just as well, although brown works well.

Thinner blades cut better than thicker blades, all else being equal, and this makes a huge difference. This is the big attraction of many Japanese knives for me, the thinner blades cut better and it is not a close call. A few Japanese companies are offering their killer thin stainless blades with ergonomic Western style handles, so you can get the thinner blades in Western or traditional handles.

The hard thin edges sharpened to 12 dps will chip if you bang them around enough. If you can live with the reduced toughness that comes with that increased cutting power, they are a revelation. I hope my expensive new Japanese knives survive my wife!

 

[Sonnydaze]

I've been working on this question of "best grit for the kitchen" for a while now. I've been experimenting with real food, and I have spoken to every pro chef who could spare me a moment or two. The answer has to address the technique used as well as the final grit!

Folks who rely on push-cutting most of their food would seem to be well served with a highly polished BESS-approved edge sharpened to the highest grit available. This will work, although you are probably crushing your food more than you have to, and slamming that shiny edge into your cutting board more than you should. I suspect most of those folks feel the need for a serrated bread knife. Test on a paper towel, loaf of bread, or brown onion skin and you will see that while the highly-polished edge might chisel its way through cheese well enough, fibrous or soft materials will be a challenge.

A lot of folks develop a gentle sawing technique, starting their stroke with a slow forward push and reversing when they run out of cutting edge. It is pretty easy and natural to learn. When using this technique, sharpening beyond hard Arkansas, or DMT fine, or 1,000 grit or so is starting to be counterproductive. This 800-1.2K edge will still shave hair and perform paper tricks up to a point, but most importantly it will cut through fish, meat, soft or hard bread, and the ultimate test of any kitchen knife, it will cleanly cut rotten tomatoes! Because as any professional chef will tell you, cutting fresh produce cleanly is a low bar. After the produce starts to rot, then you can see the difference between the butter knives and the lasers.

Unless you are performing eye surgery or preparing poisonous raw fish, I don't see any advantage to sharpening beyond 1.2-1.5K or so if you keep the blade just barely moving back and forth, using the whole cutting edge but not applying enough downward pressure to begin crushing the food.

I use mostly edge-leading strokes, so just two or three strokes per side on a strop about twice the grit of the finishing stone works for me. Any piece of paper seems to work just as well, although brown works well.

Thinner blades cut better than thicker blades, all else being equal, and this makes a huge difference. This is the big attraction of many Japanese knives for me, the thinner blades cut better and it is not a close call. A few Japanese companies are offering their killer thin stainless blades with ergonomic Western style handles, so you can get the thinner blades in Western or traditional handles.

The hard thin edges sharpened to 12 dps will chip if you bang them around enough. If you can live with the reduced toughness that comes with that increased cutting power, they are a revelation. I hope my expensive new Japanese knives survive my wife!p

Thanks for a well-defined answer. I keep sending back knives that don't live up to my expectations. I WILL go to thin Japanese knives at this point.

 

[Khromo]

Another member suggested I start with an AUS-8 or AUS-10 blade to get used to the thin edge. That way if your technique is not going to agree with the thin edges and fragile points, you will not be out too much cash. If things work out with the tough (and reasonably priced) AUS-8 blade, you can start moving up the steel beanstalk. It gets pricey, but these things will last more than a lifetime of normal use if you take care of them.

Have fun, good luck!

 

[Taz]

On my Japanese knives, my favorite edge was off a Bester 1200, Rika 5K waterstone and then stropped on bare, rough side leather. It gives that sticky sharp edge with some bite left to it, excellent for all around use. For dedicated slicers, I would often go with a soft aoto natural stone, around 2-3K finish wise; natural stones have a wider grit variety and will give a nice toothy edge that is still smooth and clean feeling.

I used to use all waterstones, up to J nats and then bare leather strops, but now I use a Sharpal 8x3, 325/1200 combo diamond stone and then my diamond strops (14 micron and 3 micron). Gives a nice sticky sharp edge very close to the above combo, but much faster and with less flattening! 325 is fast and 1200 with little to no pressure gives a sticky sharp edge and a strop will clean up the burr edge, so I would go with a 325/1200 8x3 Sharpal diamond plate and get a strop. Thats all you would need! Rough leather side on the strop to deburr and then a fine compound on the smooth side to clean up. You could even do minimal stropping after the 325 for more tooth for slicing.

I am going to be thinning down my Japanese kitchen knife collection; I finally made some kitchen knives that I have been using and haven't touched my Japanese stuff in a couple years. Shot me a PM and I can get pictures for you! Got a few 240mm gyuto, gotta see what else I have!

 

[Alberta Ed]

I don't sharpen our kitchen knives past 600 grit (DMT fine); an ultra polished edge doesn't work as well IMHO. Most major kitchen knife manufacturers use 4116 or something pretty close to it. Japanese kitchen knives are attractive but need a lot more upkeep than standard stainless knives. Have a look at Brazilian cutliero Ivan Campos (https://ivancampos.wordpress.com/) knives if you want an alternative to Japanese blades.

 

[Taz]

Japanese stainless blades don't need more upkeep? They are stainless, hand wash and dry like any other good kitchen knife?

Japanese Carbon blades need to be washed and dried fully to prevent rusting, like any other carbon kitchen knife, like the carbon Dexter's or Forgecraft.

Japanese knifes have thinner, harder edges because the steel can take that edge and hold it, unlike the western knives in softer steel. Don't hack through bones or super hard foods and use a decent cutting board (not glass or bamboo, titanium, etc) and you will be fine.

 

[Khromo]

There are several stainless steels used widely by Japanese knife manufacturers, right alongside the traditional non-stainless white and blue varieties. At the lower end, AUS-8 or -10 is softer than typical J-knives but also a little tougher and more forgiving. It is popular in entry level knives. VG-10 and Ginsan 3 are very popular and they offer an excellent balance of hardness, toughness, and corrosion resistance in mid-priced knives. The higher end stainless knives lean toward SG2/R2, a powdered stainless that performs very similiarly to the traditional white and blue varieties while resisting corrosion much better.

The traditional white and blue high carbon steels used for so many years are just dying to rust: under some common conditions they will start to bloom in a few hours, and they will pit if left overnight. Considering the outstanding performance of modern stainloess steels, I see no reason to sacrifice reasonable corrosion resistance for maybe a tiny, barely perceptible improvement in sharpness or edge holding. Most of the chefs in Japanese restaurants I've spoken to use stainless blades with western-style handles. A few used wa handles only when they were out front, performing for the customers. Back in the kitchen they used typical consumer knives of very good quality.

 

[Taz]

If you dry the carbon blue and white steels with a paper towel so no moisture is left, they do not rust. I have blades in Blue and white steels that are over 10 years old. They have a patina on them, but no rust. Use, wash, dry with paper towel; cloth towels can leave water droplets. Same exact process I use when I use my grandpa's old western style carbon knife or my carbon hunting knives, or my stainless kitchen knives. Habits die hard!

Many Japanese knives are laminated, so they can have either a hard carbon or hard stainless core and softer stainless (or carbon) cladding. This allows you to have a carbon blade with only a little carbon exposed at the edge.