Knife carry as a religious obligation?

Joined
Sep 14, 1999
Messages
332
I am considering becoming a "Grendel." Grendel is a religious/social sect or clanish type of group that is based on the liturature written by Matt Wagner under the same name: Grendel. Most are graphic novels and tell a story of a future society where warriors called Grendels protect and serve in clans and uphold a high ethical rule. A Grendel is required, by the clan/sect to carry a ceremonial blade as a tool and as a means of defence, as well as a testiment to his skill. I would compare Grendel to Scientology 20 years ago: no one has heard of it except a few, both are based on liturature works. Do you believe a "religious obligation" would override a state's laws. Is there a "religious purposes" section under a concealed carry permit?
Horse
 
No... I do not see knife bearing covered by an religious exemption in the USA. Assuming that the knife type/length is illegal where you live.

Erik
 
Hmm...interesting. You don't mention what your ceremonial blade looks like but, depending upon its design and size, it may already be legal to carry in your state.

I'm not aware of any laws or court cases that have to do with carrying a knife for religious purposes, nor am I aware of any specific religions that require knives to be carried. If anyone knows more about this, they should post; this is interesting stuff.

If you discover that your knife is illegal and you need a permit, simply saying it's for religious requirements should suffice (you may not even need to explain yourself). I don't think it's a big enough deal for them to ask you to prove that your group is an actual religion. If you want to carry the Holy Glock or the Sacred Sawed-off Shotgun, it would probably be a different story
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Sounds similar to the Sihks (sp?). They are also required to carry a ceremonial knife. I believe the key word here is CEREMONIAL, which to me implies a small knife that is symbolic as opposed to a substantial knife that is more utilitarian.

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Look to the Lord and His strength, seek His face always.
 
Custom knifemaker Jot Khalsa is a Sikh and carries a knife for religous reasons.
Bob
 
I carry a weapon at all times as a religious obligation.
I don't use this as a pretext, nor do I share this information as a joke.
The very mainstream church I attend has no doctrine regarding this: I follow my own conscience.
I think all men, and specifically married men should carry a real, as opposed to symbolic weapon at all times.
I also believe married men should wear some form of beard, but that belongs in another forum.
We have a duty to provide general safety from criminal aggression to our families and community.
If enough married men carry concealed arms, it will become statistically too dangerous for rogue males to pick random victims, whether in the school, the business place or on the street.

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Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
There is something to be said for a married guy's obligation to defend his family as well as provide for it. It's the single guys we tend to send off to fight wars. Of course, one reason why knives in particualr are seen as Evil Weapons is that they are tradtionally the weapons of people not expected or allowed to carry weapons, like peasants and women. It's an idea that might make an interesting thread over in "Politics." I'll ask The Wife what she thinks about beards.
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On freedom of religion, if carrying a weapon is a religious obligation, the ACLU has been defending the right of Sikhs to carry their kirpans (symbolic daggers) as a religious obligation, but the cases have concerned rather dull kirpans and not first-rate edged weapons. Starting a new religion, whether Grendel (the name of the monster in Beowulf) or maybe the Church of Saint James of the Sandbar, will not get you very far in the courts. Ask anybody who's tried to claim that smoking pot is a sacrament. Similarly, I'm afraid, with reading holy writ of a "mainstream" religion in a way that contradicts some civil statute.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Crowinghorse, I doubt that your firm belief in a religion founded in a comic book will garner much support in our court system.

San Diego de San Francisco
 
I remember some several years ago the issue came up, I think in California, about Sheik (sp?) children, specifically young males, carrying their ceremonial blades in public school.

I think at the time the solution was to require that the blade be welded into the sheath, or a special bladeless knife made which was simply a handle permanently attached to the sheath.

Anyone else remember this?
 
BTW the "Grendel" in the comic book is using a Lighsaber... I mean an energy folder.

OK, in Italia they used to offer the Knives of Love when a future groom and a future bride get engaged.
The first knife was to protect the girl and the second for the girl to protect her honnor.

I carry a knife to protect myself against my Old Lady...
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Never underestimate a woman. Never.

cheers,

JM
 
first of all, thanks to all for a lot of very insightful comments. it's posts like these that made me want to be part of the forum!

second of all, i'm new to the forum, so forgive me if i am out of line here, but it seems to me we owe one another the utmost respect when it comes to our different beliefs. it does not matter what those beliefs are. men and women of good character often can disagree, and yet still do so with honour and respect...to act with honour honours the warrior spirit within, right? (just my .02.)

so...Honoured Horse and other Forumites:

i'm native american, specifically three mountains band, british columbia. carrying a blade is part of my tradition--more specifically, since i'm a woman, tradition dictates that i carry a blade in certain circumstances. now, since i was taken away from my culture at such a young age, i regret to say that i don't know all the details, like which circumstances in particular, or what tradition says the men ought to do. but i do remember my grandmother polishing her knife, and speaking to my very young self quite solemnly about the responsibilities of an adult woman--one of which was, in essence, to Be Prepared. a knife was the symbol of that, altho the knife a woman carried was expected to be a real tool, not a blunt symbol.

Being Prepared, in my tribal context, does not necessarily mean only being prepared to defend one's self, although that is definitely part of it. amongst my people, the women were the carriers of sacred things, both tangible and intangible. thus, it was our job to be sure we could defend those sacred things. women of my people were not expected to wait for the man to step forward! we are warriors, too, after all, in all the senses of that word.

but Being Prepared also meant being ready to perform whatever task might be at hand. we were an agricultural folk, and we also gathered many of the plants and such around our homes for various purposes (our village was about a day and a half's drive from the
nearest town, no electricity, ok). you never knew when you might come upon something useful...so you were expected to Be Prepared.

a knife is part of a woman's traditional powwow garb, for many tribes besides just mine. the knife is often worn as a belt knife, at the woman's back. i haven't found the right knife for my garb yet, but when i do, it has often occured to me that i might have a small problem...i often drive a couple of hours away to go to a powwow. i wear my regalia in the car. sometimes i stop for food or gas...what if i were to be stopped by a cop and he found me wearing a powwow knife?

Horse, as a point of reference, besides the example of the Sikhs...keep in mind that natives on this continent have been fighting for a long time to be allowed to use peyote in religious ceremonies. in many places, indians practicing rites predating the white man have been arrested for same. don't expect the cop on the road to be up on constitutional nuances. be respectful enough of yourself to be prepared for anything--even if that means having a printed copy of pertinent laws in your wallet should you decide to carry a blade and should there be a question.

i've rambled on long enough. hopefully y'all might find something useful in those ramblings...

silverwing
 
With Sikhs, as others mentioned, the knife seems to be more a symbol -- fighting for the oppressed and all that. Many of the Sikh victories for carrying their knives revolve around the government allowing them to carry completely dull knives that are permanently sewn into the sheaths.

Joe
 
I mean no particular offense by this, and I'm as rabid a Libertarian as you could want, but... While I stand by anyone's right to believe in whatever they wish and worship whomever or whatever they choose, I cannot truthfully say that I afford the same amount of respect to any and all beliefs. Respect is earned, not granted by default -- though civility, certainly, should be automatic.

I made the comment on KnifeForums that embracing a religion based on a comic book struck me as akin to worshipping Smurfs or Voltron. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh, and I'm not trying to incite flames -- but I agree with the previous post in this thread to the effect that there's certainly no religious exemption for a graphic-novel-inspired faith. Not yet, anyway.

Razor

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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.
 
Sikhs in Canada have the right to carry their kirpans any where. in Ontario schools they usually carry a dull knife( but are not required to} . It could be razor sharp.

[This message has been edited by bansidthe (edited 29 October 1999).]
 
I am grateful to each and everyone who has posted on this subject. I am a dedicated Christian and only ask this question in response to a discussion one of my close friends and I had on wheather founding a religion from a work of liturature that required the carrying of a knife is nesseccary. I am the holder of a concealed carry permit, but it does not allow me to carry a knife of more than 4" unless I am hunting or fishing (bulls#*% laws...yes they protect us, but the responsible citizens always suffer). As many of you know, Scientology was founded from L. Ron Hubbard's works of liturature and, although I must admit founding a religion on a comic book may seem childish, Matt Wagner's comics have as much, if not more, to say about honor, courage, sacrifice, commitment, and respect than do many of the great "philosophers" works...
just my opinion...
Thanks for all the imput...I think I will follow the laws of the land until my congregation grows...
If you haven't read any of Matt Wagner's works, I would recommend "Grendel Cycle" the basis of the Grendel Mythos and "Devils and Deaths: A Grendel Tale"
Horse
 
Just take care nobody pulls off your arm and beats you to death with it, as I believe was the fate of the original "Grendel"...

-Drew
 
I do not think following a religious code based upon a fictional character would earn you any special legal rights. The rights of religious groups are permitted, however anyone can create a religion so therefore I think only established religions (thousands of years of tradition and belief) would get any leniency in court.
As to your aspiration to be a "Grendel", If you were allowed special legal rights it would open a Pandora's box. As an example (not a flame) everyone could join "The Church of Vengeance" and become "Punishers" running around with a vast array of weapons (mostly
firearms) and deal out vigilante justice to evildoers.
One last thing to keep in mind, I don't think LEO's think there is much of a difference
between criminals and vigilantes.

 
I understand the courts and the draft boards look to established doctrine and established religions in order to determine the validity of a religious practice.
I don't agree with that outlook.
I don't have a church or doctrine to back me up; only my conscience.
Whether or not an arbitrary number of people share my beliefs and have done so for an arbitrary length of time which the courts deem satisfactory does not have any relevance in terms of conscience.

I also think the religious aspect of a knife has to do with its function and not its appearance.
A dull costume knife would not serve my purposes and, in fact would probably work counter to my beliefs.

I cannot imagine how the Sikhs could have any peace about wearing a dull knife.
I would like to hear from an informed Sikh.
We may not have our facts straight.

I wear a beard and carry a weapon at all times out of respect for, and in servitude to my neighbor and to God.
I understand that others may choose to go unarmed, shave their faces, dress plainly or ornately, eat meat or not eat meat, and carry a small knife in the small of his or her back for the very same reasons.



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Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
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