Knife Identification and Restoration

[humanjoe]

Hello All,

I'm very new to the forum and had a question for the experts. This knife belongs to my father-in-law and it was given to him by his father who served in the US Navy during World War II. The story I received was this knife was issued to him during his service time. Since then it has sat in a toolbox gather rust, etc. I would like some help identifying it and cleaning it up. I don't want to destroy the patina by throwing it on a grinder and making it shiny but I also don't want chunks of rust, etc.

Any help you could give me on identification and tips on cleaning and preserving the metal and leather would be great. What I have been able to determine is that it is similar to the Camillus USN Knives issued during WWII but the stamping doesn't seem to match the records I have found.

Thanks,

Adam


9 1.2 inch overall length with a 5 inch blade.

 

[humanjoe]

Did a little more research, maybe this? I didn't see anything in this about stampings that maybe on the knife.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

It definitely resembles a MK1 and seems to match the specifications on the document you posted.

In "reading the knife, not the story", this would be a Camillus model 5683L94 knife (unparkerized version).

Without the USN MK1 stamp on the other side of the blade, this knife could be:
1) a Camillus model 5683L94 knife (unparkerized version) made during or after WW2 for sale in a base PX.
2) a Camillus model 5683L94 knife made during WW2 for civilian sale.
3) a Camillus model 5683L94 knife made after WW2 for civilian sale using parts left over after the final contracts were canceled by the Dept of War after the war ended.
4) a Camillus USN MK1 that made it through QC w/o the USN MK1 stamp to the fleet via contract sale for issue to fleet personnel.

Looking at the oral family history from the outside, any of the possibilities could be the source of this knife.

Your grandfather-in-law could have acquired the knife:
1) from the PX during or after the war (depending on how long he remained in after the war ended),
2) been issued the knife from a PX/Civilian unit purchase (large quantity unit purchases of civilian knives was much more prevalent during WW2 than now)
3) picked it up after he got out at a civilian store out of nostalgia for one he had during the war (he would have still served in the war and had one like it, just not THIS knife)
3) could have been issued a non-stamped version, although non-contract compliant equipment was relatively rare.

For preservation purposes, I'm one of those that likes to leave the knives as mucked with as little as possible when keeping them as a collector, keepsake style knife. I prefer leaving the patina history alone. I use 0000 steel wool and mineral oil to stop active rust and remove loose rust. Preferences vary but you can use Obenauf's or Maquire's leather preservative compounds, mink oil, neatsfoot oil, bee's wax etc to preserve the leather handle segments. Some people dislike using one or another of these items for various reasons. I use Obenauf's, mink oil and bee's wax. Modern neatsfoot oil is not the same as old-timey neatsfoot oil and has dropped out of favor with a lot of folks (except for stiff heavy leathers like saddles, etc). Opinions vary on how well any of them work.

 

[sac troop]

I'm of the opinion that what you have is an example of the last version of the 5" fixed blade pilots knife made for the U.S. Army Air Force. Many are not aware that towards the end of the war Camillus got approval to alter the knife from a fullered blade knife to one with a saber grind. Also you can see the common changes in materials used to reduce costs.
These knives do look more like the MK1 with a bright finished blade, but there will be no marking for a branch of service.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Well, I would be one of those many who were unaware of this.

Thanks for the additional info. I'll have to take a look at mine. I have a couple that I decided were as I mentioned above - PX/post-war excess inventory versions.

 

[sac troop]

I certainly can't take any credit for the research done. Much of the work done is from Dustin Clingenpeel as well as others. Frank Trzaska published a good article in the Feb 2014 Knife World magazine expanding on the information about the various USAAC 5" Hunting Knife. In that article Frank didn't have the room to expand much on the specific variances that occurred to many of the knives during the war production. I hope that means I can look forward to a follow up article in the near future.

 

[sac troop]

Some pictures of one that hasn't acquired as much character.

You may notice that on this knife the Camillus N.Y. is stamped on the reverse side of the blade while the knife in the OP is stamped on the name side of the blade. I've seen several examples of both and can only wonder if it means anything.

Here are some pictures of the same knife compared to a Camillus 1953 pilots knife.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Dang, I think I have one of those "pilot's knives". If I remember correctly, I just have it recorded as a "unknown model, post-ww2/early 50s hunting knife, no sheath".

 

[sac troop]

In my collection I have a plain 5" Case knife that is similar to their known model used by the USAAF but I've always kept as a curiosity, because I have yet to positively ID it. The jury is still out on that one at this time.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

maybe i'm just a little warped, but for me, that's part of the fun... tracking down details about old knives.

OK, maybe more than a little.

 

[sac troop]

I have friends (?) who will call me obsessive/compulsive. I think I prefer "warped".:thumbup:

 

[pzampino]

I have this same model knife, with a "theater-modified" handle. I've also been confused by the markings, which seem unusual compared with most of what I've found in my research. This is the only info I've seen, which matches very closely what I have (except the handle mod). Mine is also stamped on the opposite side from the OP's. Thanks for all the info so far.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Being the retentive individual that I am, I would be running in circles trying to figure out what the FC2c visible through the clear acrylic means. But then, as mentioned above, I've a warped sense of humor.

 

[pzampino]

Being the retentive individual that I am, I would be running in circles trying to figure out what the FC2c visible through the clear acrylic means. But then, as mentioned above, I've a warped sense of humor.

You think that's interesting? I've spent some time trying to find out who S.W. Tresselt (that's on the other side) is/was.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

I've been thinking on the FC2c. I believe that it to the owner's rating in the Navy - FC2c would translate to Fire Controlman 2nd Class. Fire Controlmen work with, duh, weapons fire control systems.

From the US Navy career information website....

"Fire controlman is a highly competitive rating within the Navy, so standards for recruits are very high. If you're considering this rating, you'll need to be mature and willing to take on a lot of responsibility, in addition to having technical skill and expertise.

Unlike other ratings, in addition to operating weapons systems, fire controlmen troubleshoot and repair the weapons as well. These weapons systems include the Tomahawk missile system, the Sea Sparrow missile system and the Harpoon missile system as well as the associated computer and sensor packages. "

The FC rating was a spin-off of the gunner's mate rating in 1941. In 1960, the rating title changed to FT, "Fire Control Technician". In 1985, the rating name changed back to "Fire Controlman".

Google is our friend.... Searching "S.W. Tresselt" gave nothing but led to suggested links to e.w. tresselt which in turn.....down the rat hole I went

I did a search on a site that list's the Navy's WW2 Muster Rolls, 1939 to 1949 (the results narrowed the time frame to 1943 - 1947). One of the "Tresselt's" listed was an E. W. Tresselt. Since I am not a paying member, full details were visible to me, but what I found is that an E.W. Tresselt, Edward W. Tresselt, and Edward Warren Tresselt were on Active Duty during WW2. Edward Warren and Edward W. are listed on the USS Arkansas, so it's a fairly safe bet that all three names refer to the same person. Edward Warren Tresselt's service number was 6476681.

USS Arkansas (BB-33) in 1943 and 1944, Edward Warren Tresselt and Edward W. Tresselt

USS Janssen (DE-396) in 30 Nov 1944 and 10 Apr 1945. Edward Warren Tresselt

USS Swenning (DE-394) in 1945 Edward Warren Tresselt

USS Herbert C. Jones (DE-137) in 1946, Edward Warren Tresselt


There is no record of him on a ship prior to 1943 or after 1946. So he probably enlisted in late 1942ish and his first ship out of Basic Training was the USS Arkansas. I suspect that he started out as a Boatswain's Mate (BM) and struck for (applied to be) FC after he made E3/Seaman. Most likely he made FC2 in 1944 or 1945. I'm unfamiliar with WW2 advancement rates. Basing that on my own experience (1977-1997).


I found that an Edward Warren Tressselt was born 21 Nov 1920 and died 8 Jun 1998 in Ocean City, NJ.

The obituaries for the Ocean City Sentinel Ledger are not available on line, but maybe you could contact the OC Library directly and ask them to look up and provide you with his. They'd probably help, especially if you told them you had possibly found his WW2 knife and are researching if it could be his. http://www.oceancitylibrary.org/Newspapers/

That's all I could find, assuming that it is E. W. and not really S. W., but I couldn't find nary a reference to an "S.W." Tresselt.

 

[bertl]

Searching "S.W. Tresselt" gave nothing but led to suggested links to e.w. tresselt which in turn.....down the rat hole I went

- Zzyzzogeton

I did a quick search also and came up with essentially the same thing. Do you think the "S" might refer to "Seaman" instead of being an initial in his name and that the "FC2c" might have been added later?

Bert

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Nope.

Now for the long winded explanation of an opinion formed from less than 2 seconds of cogitation, evaluating the question based on accumulated knowledge buried in the La Brea Tar Pit of my mind.

First, I believe the knife was reassembled as is from the gitgo. It would have been a real pain in the keister to disassemble, add info and then reassemble it.

Second, if he had been referring to a "Seaman" rank, he would have had BMSN or FCSN. Seaman is a generic rank, as is Airman (airedale ratings) and Constructionman (SeaBees Ratings). The only ranks using "Seaman" without a rate designation are brand new "Seaman", SN = E1 or "Seaman Apprentice, SA = E2. So a solitary "S" would be inconsistent. Also the info is
"S." implying that an "A" or an "N" could just as easily have taken the period's place and been correct.

Third, an E1 or E2 would NOT have had the pull to get access to the machine shop. At the least, it would have been a "struck Seaman", e.g., FCSN or BMSN or.... who would have been around long enough to make cross departmental friends over in the Engineering Department, where the machine shops are. Had he been on an aircraft carrier, the Air Wing would have had their own machine shop, but the rank barrier would have still applied.

****
and going back to my previous post, I just noticed that the poster, pzamponi, is listed as being in South Jersey. Since Ocean City, NJ, where the obituary for the Mr. Tresselt listed in my post died, if would be more likely that the knife came from his estate.