Knife Making and Arts productivity ...

galadduin

galadduin

Joined
Dec 25, 2004
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I had a discussion with my Dad and it turned to a fight (not physical of course). He insists on I have to produce knives in batches - same knives at the same time in dozens etc... I really like to make each knife unique and to concentrate on one knife from start to finish. He is an industrial engineer and stresses on the feasibility. I know it would be time saver to make them in batches for sure, but I don't like to make a knife twice no matter what...

To give you an idea of my work process: I don't have any power tools other than a belt grinder I made. No mills, no surface grinders, no power hammer or even no disc grinder (I have one but it is only used for handles - has no hard surface). I only make custom orders these days, and there is a backlog of around 10 knives. I use the advantage of there is no one does custom knives in my country and no knife maker uses hi-alloys like RWL34 or D2, also they have no knowledge on HT or stabilized wood or even stitching their own sheaths. I manage to produce about 3-4 knives in a week and therefore I earn about 1000$ per month -excluding the costs. It may be low for a country like USA or Europe but it is well enough for my country. I have a fear or the quality would drop significantly if I was doing batch jobs....

What do you think on this subject? I would like to hear your opinions? To finalize my words, my goal is to become an artist on this business not a craftsman producing similar models...

Thanks...
 
Hi Emre,

You have good questions. You also have good professional objectives. Seems like you already have your answers (or intentions). As they say in business, there are only two ways to improve the bottom line: increase revenues and/or decrease expenses. In your line of work that would seem to translate into a variety of possibilities.

  1. Increase revenues
    • Charge more for your one of a kind knives
      • (improve quality of product and customers)
    • Sell more knives
      • (increase quantity of product and customers)
  2. Decrease expenses
    • make knive(s) in less time
      • (improve quality of production methods)
      • (design knives for production efficiency)
    • spend less on materials and supplies
      • (competitive sourcing and wholesale purchasing)
      • (design knives that use less costly materials)
    • lower your overhead
      • (shop costs: rent, utilities, machinery, etc)
It seems pretty basic, but gets tough in face of our ideologies. When it comes down to it, we have to wear three hats to be a knifemaker: that of the visionary (the artist and entrepreneur), that of the worker (the craftsperson and technician), and that of the manager (the economist and marketeer).

When I was goldsmithing in Beverly Hills I was not making enough money. My fellow goldsmiths and I always said, and believed, I needed more jobs. One day I spread all my work orders out (about two weeks worth of jobs) and assessed what I was going to make. I discovered I was spending too much time on my jobs and not getting paid enough. In fact, at that rate, if I got more orders I would have gone broker faster! I learned then and there, that doing my best work didn't mean making a Faberge Egg for every commission (not that I could, but you know what I mean). Thus I either had to limit what I put into some of the pieces I made or the customers had to invest more.

Good luck with figuring out what you need to do.

All the best, Phil
 
It is easier to make knives in small batches (at least for me) I like to forge and grind them 4 or 5 at a time, heat treat then finish them individually after heat treat. Grinding especially seems more productive doing more than 1 knife at a time.

You have to do what you think is going to be best for you. If you're not happy making 5 at a time then you won't put your best effort into the knife, it's not your art at that point it's your job. Raise your prices a little on your knives and continue to make EMRE's knives. The quality and passion you put into your work will show and be appreciated by your customers even at a slightly higher price.
 
Thanks friends. Your opinions are priceless for me. I am aware I take things slow for the moment. I can grind 4-5 at a time I suppose though I'm afraid to mess things up. I'll try to note down my time management, make some charts and a simple diary. May be I'll manage to make more knives at a time but I cannot sleep if I sold a knife that is not well designed and executed. I need to invest some I guess. May be a good disc grinder would lower the time involved on hand sanding and a mill would be a great addition for my shop. I'm really considering to raise the prices. For example I sell 8" chefs knives, RWL34 and stabilized wood at 120$, 4" D2 hunters at 100$. Do you think I should raise the prices even I'm a beginner at this business?
 
Not sure what the costs of steel and handle materials are in Turkey. Figure the costs of your belts, materials and ALL the expendables that you use (drill bits, glue, paper towels, gloves) then figure out how many hours per knife. This is the basis for your decisions.

You can cut down your production time with a belt grinder (at least with 2x72) by making changes to your grinding process. Top quality belts will really help you cut down on sanding time and you get more knives per belt.

I would raise the chef's knife to $150 or so if you think it will sell at those prices. The hunters should most likely be $125 or more. Raising prices won't help if people won't buy them at that price though.
 
Will Leavitt said:
Not sure what the costs of steel and handle materials are in Turkey. Figure the costs of your belts, materials and ALL the expendables that you use (drill bits, glue, paper towels, gloves) then figure out how many hours per knife. This is the basis for your decisions.

You can cut down your production time with a belt grinder (at least with 2x72) by making changes to your grinding process. Top quality belts will really help you cut down on sanding time and you get more knives per belt.

I would raise the chef's knife to $150 or so if you think it will sell at those prices. The hunters should most likely be $125 or more. Raising prices won't help if people won't buy them at that price though.
Click to expand...

Thanks Will, that answers my doubts about the price. Customers I have mostly from rich society around, bank managers, landlords and rich husbands' wives. They know they are buying the piece to use it life time and with a life time guarantee for structural failures so I don't think I would lose customers to raise prices for about 15-20%, only I have doubts on the quality of my work as I didnt handle any custom knife made by a good knife maker before so I have no reference point at all, I can compare my work with my previous work, thats all. Thats why I'm shy at pricing :o.
I have a 4 speed 1 HP 2x72 belt grinder I made, but the belts I have sucks IMO. Your point on the belts is very well put, I'm saving some money to order 980 Blaze belts and some fine grit Norax belts from Tracy. Do you think I should go for these belts?
 
I haven't used Blazes, I'm going to try some when I get low on my 977s. Different belts work for different steels and grinding styles. Other than just hogging metal off with 36 and 60 grit 3M 977s, I use "gators" 3m Trizact CF from 80-400 (they're actually the European designations but I can't remember, A300-A45 :confused:) The Gator A45 seem to leave an almost 600x finish though. If the Norax are like the rayon backed 3M trizacts you should love them. I need to order some more of the 307 Triazacts.

You have to find what steps work for you and your style of grinding.
 
One comment I have about raising prices, I personally would hesitate to rasie my prices 15-20% all in one go. You have stated that you are a beginner at this and making 3-4 knives a week you should improve greatly in a matter of months. I personally would raise them 7-10% and then take another look 6 months down the road, you will have an easier time justifying your increases with your increased skill level. I think for the steels you are using, better belts would benefit you greatly. The ALOX belts work fine for simple carbon steels and for sanding handles, but the ceramics really shine when it comes to the higher alloy steels.
I wish you great sucess and am happy to have you as a member of our knifemaking family.
Del
 
Your concern about quality is important, it must be maintained.

In my case I find that batching about 30 knives at a time improves my grinding, and heat treating.

I the cut handle materials, polish blades and make guards in batches as well.

After handle glue up each knife is finished individually with an eye to quality.

All said It works for me.

George

I am an industrial engineer as well.
 
I would make several knives at the same time even if you are doing each knife differently. That way you are profiling 5 times or more in a row then you don't have to switch around your tooling nearly as often. Plus it allows you to make more knives in less time gaining experience faster. You can save even more time by making several of the same knife design at one time.

Allen
 
OK. Here are my decisions after reading all your kind responses, especially Phil's post:

1. To increase income: I feel Mr. Delbert is right on this subject. I'll raise my prices to optimum level by small increases, so I'll be working at low level prices for about a year or so... There is a pressure from potential customers see more options and more types of knives. Folders are far away for me I guess. I'll follow above suggestions and after I clear the backlog of mine I'll start to grind and finish some knives in batches of 4 or 5.
2. To decrease expenses: I'll machine finish some types of knives, now I like to hand finish my knives but it really consumes time a lot, I'll charge more for handrubbed finishes... Buy some quality shop items, quality belts and files... Build more fixtures, jigs in my spare time... HT in batches to decrease electric consumption. Thats all I could come up. Maybe my Dad will be happy after all :D

But I'll be finishing and sheathing knives individually as Mr. Tichbourne stated. I really hate to make sheaths so it is more likely to mess up with them, so I'll concentrate to find an outsource for sheaths. If I cannot find a sheath maker may be I'll invest some for Kydex sheath making...

Thanks friends, it's good feel not alone when a problem clouds my vision...
 
I have been doing them in small batches, because it saves time in the long run. It also reduces my propane costs and wear on the forge if can forge several blades, clean them up, and HT several at a time. It also keeps my shop more organized, because I don't have to get out and put away the same tools over and over again.

I haven't started selling my knives yet, although I am almost ready to. I am a full time university student, so every minute I can save in the shop is a minute gained towards my studies. I'm hoping to supplement the GI Bill with a few knives a month, similar to you.
 
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