Knife Questioned by the Sheriff

[ahawk1911]

I live in a small town in Northeastern Colorado. There are no specific county laws regarding knife laws. That specific day, I was EDCing a concealed fixed blade inside the waisteband with an untucked shirt. I EDC a CRK professional soldier (3.175 inch blade) and was told that because it is a fixed blade, it has to be open carried and gave me a verbal warning. The only exception is if I have a conceal carry permit. Being that I am 18, I do not have one yet.
It is my understanding that it is legal to conceal carry a fixed blade that is under 3.5 inches. I don't think that the sheriff was right in this instance. I am just wondering if anyone could help clarify this to me? More specifically, was I in the right carrying the knife in the way that I was. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

knifelaws

colorado

fixedblade

edc

chrisreeve

professionalsoldier

coloradoknifelaws

 

[Thomas Linton]

Small town? Sheriff?

What is your objective? You may face the Sheriff down but what will that get you? You are legally correct but you cannot "win." Ever drive 1 mph over the limit on a state highway or an Interstate in that county? Colorado has an "absolute" limit on those roads. 66 in a 65 zone is speeding. No defense except that you were not going 66. Fine. Points. Elevated insurance costs. Might a sheriff make you a special project?

My input would be to do what he told you unless you are planning to leave tomorrow and not return. Seriously.


By the way, I think you will find that Colorado, following the usual pattern, issues permits to carry concealed firearms. No such permit for any other weapon. See 23-31-210.

 

[killgar]

Small town? Sheriff?

What is your objective? You may face the Sheriff down but what will that get you? You are legally correct but you cannot "win." Ever drive 1 mph over the limit on a state highway or an Interstate in that county? Colorado has an "absolute" limit on those roads. 66 in a 65 zone is speeding. No defense except that you were not going 66. Fine. Points. Elevated insurance costs. Might a sheriff make you a special project?

My input would be to do what he told you unless you are planning to leave tomorrow and not return. Seriously.


By the way, I think you will find that Colorado, following the usual pattern, issues permits to carry concealed firearms. No such permit for any other weapon. See 23-31-210.

I couldn't DISAGREE more.

For an American citizen to deny themselves a legal right that they wish to exercise for fear that a corrupt or misinformed member of law enforcement will arrest them is the very death of freedom.

What good are legal rights if people are afraid to exercise them. Where does it end? Should we as Americans allow corrupt or misinformed cops to deprive us of any lawful right that they feel like?

If a cop gives you a speeding ticket when you weren't speeding are you just going to pay it, or would you fight it in court?

If a cop assaulted you or stole your property would you do nothing about it and let them get away with it for fear of retribution?

If a cop violates your Constitutional rights would you not seek justice and take them to court?

Like the old saying goes- Those who sacrifice liberty for safety (or the illusion of safety) deserve neither.

If it's legal for the OP to carry his knife concealed then nothing should prevent him from doing so.

To the OP, was it the actual sheriff or a sheriffs deputy?

My advice is to research Colorado knife laws until you know them inside and out. If necessary, contact a local attorney (this is never a bad idea as you never know when you might need one). If you can find the Colorado penal code online, print out any statute that says it's legal to carry a knife of that size concealed, then carry that printout in your wallet. Show the printout to any member of law enforcement who hassles you about your knife.

Also, after conducting your research and getting your ducks in a row, you might pay a visit to the sheriffs office and request a visit with the sheriff to discuss what the law actually says.

Naturally, whenever you deal with members of law enforcement you should be polite. Never make it sound like you know more than they do or that you are trying to tell them their job. If they are reasonable, they will be receptive to a citizen who politely informs them of a law that they might be incorrect about.

And if you are ever arrested for something that is not a crime, that is a severe violation of your Constitutional rights, and you can sue the individual cop, and the county that employs him.

A county sheriff is not autonomous, they cannot make up any law they want, or lawfully arrest people who have not committed any crime. The authority of the state, and the authority of the federal government are far greater than the authority of a county sheriff. If a sheriff is making up their own laws, and violating peoples Constitutional rights, those people have remedies- they can report the sheriff to the state governors office, the state attorneys office, and the state police. You can also call the US Justice department. And you can call the ACLU.

What is the objective? The objective is the freedom to exercise ones legal rights under the law without fear, threat, or hindrance. And personally, that's something I place a very high value on. It may be difficult to "win" when going up against law enforcement, but in my opinion, to just give up and willingly abandon ones freedom is a loss beyond measure. The only thing worse than having ones freedoms taken away, is to voluntarily give them away out of fear or for the sake of convenience.

 

[druid189]

Seek the advice of a local attorney who specializes in these matters.

 

[SVTFreak]

Following the law and not what he says could very well cost you some money but in the end you will win.

Case in point. Here the local city PD arrested a guy for open carrying a firearm. Which isn't legal. Since they arrested him for that instead of trespassing after the business owner asked him to leave, he was able to sue and win several 10's of thousands from the PD. He was right and he won but guess who better never so much as step one mph out of line now?

Weather you are right or wrong is one thing but weather you can afford to prove you are right is a whole other question.

 

[glistam]

I must agree with Killgar. Legislating from behind the badge is reprehensible and must never be tolerated.

Colorado Revised Statutes 18-12-105 states:

(1) A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if such person knowingly and unlawfully:
(a) Carries a knife concealed on or about his or her person;

Knife is defined under 18-12-101:

(f) "Knife" means any dagger, dirk, knife, or stiletto with a blade over three and one-half inches in length, or any other dangerous instrument capable of inflicting cutting, stabbing, or tearing wounds, but does not include a hunting or fishing knife carried for sports use. The issue that a knife is a hunting or fishing knife must be raised as an affirmative defense.

With the following case law:

Defendant could not be convicted of carrying a concealed weapon without the prosecution proving that defendant intended to use this short-bladed knife as a weapon. While the characteristics of an instrument may be an important factor in determining the intended purpose of an instrument, the language of the concealed weapons statute and established precedent establishes that a knife's design does not, by itself, prove that the person carrying it intended to use it as a weapon.
-A.P.E., a Juvenile, Petitioner, v. The PEOPLE of the State of Colorado, Respondent. 2001

This is binding decision saying that under 3.5" is not illegal, unless they can prove it was carried as a weapon. The knife was a push dagger with a blade less than 3.5" in that case, carried by a minor.

Based on this information, your knife is not illegal.

However, you have left a very key piece of information out of your story that must examined. If your knife was concealed, how on earth did the sheriff find it? Other case law in Colorado states:

"Concealed" means placed out of sight so as not to be discernible or apparent by ordinary observation. People ex rel. O.R., 220 P.3d 949 (Colo. App. 2008).

So how exactly did this encounter go down? I must warn you, when people on this forum lie to me, this is usually where they do it. I have on two separate occasions tracked down the police report of people who say one thing on this forum and what actually happened was something else entirely. Sorry if that sounds a bit mean, but it's just my experience.

 

[cardo]

"I have on two separate occasions tracked down the police report of people who say one thing on this forum and what actually happened was something else entirely."

Police reports are always the Truth, the Whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth?

 

[Thomas Linton]

"Free legal advice is worth every penny you pay for it."

 

[glistam]

Police reports are always the Truth, the Whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth?

Oh don't be silly. Of course they might lie. But when a man tells me on a forum he was arrested for an assisted-opener while minding is own business, and the police report, charging document, and court transcript say things like "domestic battery" "drunk and disorderly" "broken facial bones" "witness statement" etc., I tend to be a little skeptical of people who claim LEO encounters about knives were completely one-sided.

 

[Danke42]

I hate verbal warnings. I'd much rather get beat down and tossed in the pokey.

Oh wait; no it's the other way around!

 

[Thomas Linton]

And, by the way, counties in Colorado are empowered to pass local laws ("ordinances" in Colorado terminology) that may include laws regulating the carrying of concealed weapons.

 

[yepimonfire]

18-12-105
Look it up, carry it around and show him next time. He was wrong, that's all there is to it, what will he do? Falsely arrest you? Sue him for false imprisonment if he does. Do not give up your rights.

 

[cardo]

You just mentioned the police report. Everything that comes after is an attempt to find the probable truth between 'he did this' and "I'm innocent!".

 

[Thomas Linton]

18-12-105
Look it up, carry it around and show him next time. He was wrong, that's all there is to it, what will he do? Falsely arrest you? Sue him for false imprisonment if he does. Do not give up your rights.

And you have carefully researched local law before giving your considered advice?

Got the name of a local lawyer who will handle the case for this 18-year-old ? Oh that's right, you have no idea what county this is.

You guys are amazing. Very bold when you have no skin in the game.

 

[yepimonfire]

And you have carefully researched local law before giving your considered advice?

Got the name of a local lawyer who will handle the case for this 18-year-old ? Oh that's right, you have no idea what county this is.

You guys are amazing. Very bold when you have no skin in the game.

So look up the county and follow their laws. Most police officers are ill informed when it comes to knives. I used to live in Indiana, there is no blade length restriction there, there is no county or city restriction there, but every officer I spoke with insisted 4" was the limit. I proved several of them wrong.

 

[powernoodle]

I can't speak to your situation specifically, but here are some good guidelines to follow:

1- thoroughly know and understand the knife/gun laws of your jurisdiction. Commit them to memory.
2- strictly comply with those laws, unless your conscience won't allow
3- be as sweet as a newborn kitten when dealing with law enforcement. Stick with "yes, sir", "no, sir" and "I'm sorry, sir" if possible. Don't even think about showing an attitude, even if the cop is a axehole. Especially if he is an axehole.
4 - don't be afraid to lawfully carry a knife or gun anywhere and anytime. And don't be afraid of law enforcement. The worst thing they can do is arrest you, even if wrongly, and you are considerably better off in the long run to risk an unlawful arrest than to live your life with your tail between your legs.

But a deferential attitude with the police will render almost everything else unnecessary.

Rock on!

 

[Insipid Moniker]

It's very easy to tell you to take a stand on principle from behind the safety of a computer monitor. Real world? He just gave you a free "this is what I will hassle you for" lesson, personally I would take it. Wrong or right, he has the power to make your life more than a bit hellish for the duration of your stay in his jurisdiction.

If you want to fight it, I'll applaud you and I hope everything works out, as we need some people who will do that. Me, I can't afford that hassle over a change in my EDC rotation.

 

[glistam]

It's very easy to tell you to take a stand on principle from behind the safety of a computer monitor. Real world? He just gave you a free "this is what I will hassle you for" lesson, personally I would take it. Wrong or right, he has the power to make your life more than a bit hellish for the duration of your stay in his jurisdiction.

If you want to fight it, I'll applaud you and I hope everything works out, as we need some people who will do that. Me, I can't afford that hassle over a change in my EDC rotation.

Hence why I asked how a LEO came to make a remark on a fully concealed knife in the first place. There was a reason he did that. Police don't just walk around, spot a random person out in public doing nothing out of the ordinary and think "I think I'll pat him down for weapons!" If the OP was breaking the law or acting in a suspicious manner (the most likely scenario), he should just count himself lucky and let it drop. If he leaned over and his shirt pulled up showing the knife when a cop just happened to be looking his direction (least likely), that's different.

 

[killgar]

You guys are amazing. Very bold when you have no skin in the game.

Actually, we all have "skin in the game", because we all live under the authority of law enforcement, we all own and carry knives, and we all face the risk of having our rights violated. And when the rights of one are in jeopardy, the rights of all are in jeopardy.

Your attitude seems to be that people should never stand up to law enforcement when they are wrong, or stand up for their rights when their rights are being violated by members of law enforcement. I don't share that attitude.

On an individual basis, the OP, just like every American, must (or at least should) be willing to stand up for their own rights. If you aren't willing to stand up for your own rights, don't expect other people to do it for you. And if you choose not to stand up for your rights, don't be surprised when more of your rights are taken away because of your inaction. When people refuse to stand up for their rights when their rights are violated, they are only encouraging the further violation of their rights.

And yes, counties do have the power to pass county ordinances, following the open and public democratic process. But no member of law enforcement, no matter their rank, has the power to enact their own laws. Not even the mayor, or District Attorney have the power to enact their own laws.

And you are correct, legal advice given on the internet by total strangers with unknown credentials is worth exactly what people paid for it. But this is a DISCUSSION forum, not a lawyers forum. And this is why many of us are quick to advise people to CONSULT AN ATTORNEY.

You think it's wrong for people on this forum to tell an 18 year old American citizen to stand up for the lawful rights that he wishes to exercise. I find that extremely disturbing. An 18 year old can join the military, fight and die on foreign soil for American freedom, but you don't think he should stand up for his rights here at home when they are violated. It's a sad thing to see freedom treated so cheap and shabbily. It's a sad thing to see freedom discarded with such casual indifference.

Freedom isn't always free. Throughout the history of this country people have, and still are, willing to risk arrest, and worse, in pursuit, and in defense of their rights. Throughout the history of this country people have risked their lives, and many have died, in pursuit, and in defense of their rights. What a sad thing it is to see people willing to give up their rights, ANY rights, out of fear, or for the sake of convenience. I wonder what the founding fathers would think of that. I guess some people just have better things to do than worry about their rights.

 

[druid189]

just put the cranky B[fatherless child] on your ignore list. It will save you a ton of headache posts to have to refute....

Actually, we all have "skin in the game", because we all live under the authority of law enforcement, we all own and carry knives, and we all face the risk of having our rights violated. And when the rights of one are in jeopardy, the rights of all are in jeopardy.

Your attitude seems to be that people should never stand up to law enforcement when they are wrong, or stand up for their rights when their rights are being violated by members of law enforcement. I don't share that attitude.

On an individual basis, the OP, just like every American, must (or at least should) be willing to stand up for their own rights. If you aren't willing to stand up for your own rights, don't expect other people to do it for you. And if you choose not to stand up for your rights, don't be surprised when more of your rights are taken away because of your inaction. When people refuse to stand up for their rights when their rights are violated, they are only encouraging the further violation of their rights.

And yes, counties do have the power to pass county ordinances, following the open and public democratic process. But no member of law enforcement, no matter their rank, has the power to enact their own laws. Not even the mayor, or District Attorney have the power to enact their own laws.

And you are correct, legal advice given on the internet by total strangers with unknown credentials is worth exactly what people paid for it. But this is a DISCUSSION forum, not a lawyers forum. And this is why many of us are quick to advise people to CONSULT AN ATTORNEY.

You think it's wrong for people on this forum to tell an 18 year old American citizen to stand up for the lawful rights that he wishes to exercise. I find that extremely disturbing. An 18 year old can join the military, fight and die on foreign soil for American freedom, but you don't think he should stand up for his rights here at home when they are violated. It's a sad thing to see freedom treated so cheap and shabbily. It's a sad thing to see freedom discarded with such casual indifference.

Freedom isn't always free. Throughout the history of this country people have, and still are, willing to risk arrest, and worse, in pursuit, and in defense of their rights. Throughout the history of this country people have risked their lives, and many have died, in pursuit, and in defense of their rights. What a sad thing it is to see people willing to give up their rights, ANY rights, out of fear, or for the sake of convenience. I wonder what the founding fathers would think of that. I guess some people just have better things to do than worry about their rights.

I completely agree with EVERYTHING killgar said....and I'm the one wearing the badge....

There comes a point where LE must make a split-second decision but this isn't one of them. IF the Officer is wrong though, it should be POLITELY pointed out to him. Carry the Statute numbers in your wallet and hand them to him/her when you are asked to provide your ID. Remember that Terry Stop conversation I had a few weeks back? Unless a person is actually witnessed violating a Law, or under investigation of a violation of Law, there must be reasonable suspicion or probable cause to stop a person. IF the situation is as the OP stated and there was no law violation in progress, politely educate the Officer with the Statute number because he/she can look it up on the computer in the cruiser. If the situation deteriorates from there, make a point to SAY you invoke your 5th Amendment and inform that officer you want your attorney before answering any further questions. It pisses us off [not me personally, LE in general] but it's your Right. All too often, citizens think "eh...I'll just answer him. What's it going to hurt? I'm not doing anything wrong." Remember...the outward reason for Police is to enforce Law. The HIDDEN reason is to collect revenue for the jurisdiction in which we serve. This is how Mayors, Governors and the Federal Government keep taxes "low/reasonable" [though they never are]. Fines, bails [and the % forfeited to Pre-Trial, etc], permits/licenses and sales from seized property are all used to benefit who? THEM. Not you, not me....the governmental entity.

And LE will use whatever you say against you, unto whatever outcome will develop. It's why the 5th Amendment exists....to protect yourself from self incrimination.