Knife: SEAL standards and yours

I do know that some of the SEAL teams have been issued one of the Mission Knives for some type of diving duty. That's understandable since Ti is very corrosion proof.
 
Originally posted by blastjv
It's very easy to find fault with someone's opinion when you only quote parts of sentences (but then it's no longer that person's opinion, it becomes your perverted presentation of words which had previously been used to express another person's opinion).

Bear in mind that I used phrases like, "...might be worth listening to..." and "...may be worthwhile...".

OF COURSE your needs in a tool are different than those of a Navy SEAL!!! I'm not advocating selecting your letter opener based on what SEALs chop bad guys in half with, that's foolish.

I'm saying that if the need for which you require a knife might in any way reflect the needs of a Spec Ops Type then it MIGHT be worthwhile to consider the choices of those Spec Ops Types.

If you think about it, is it more sensible to make selections based on your own (perceived) needs and the 'best' tool for those jobs or does it make more sense to consider ALL opinons which may (or may not) apply to your situation and only then discard irrelevant ideas (and tools).

FOR EXAMPLE:

You seem to laughingly dismiss the silly idea of a SEAL's need to infiltrate an enemy prison camp as being the slightest bit relevant to an average Joe, but what if that average Joe would be using his knife digging in the yard, removing shrubs, or cutting baling wire or other such dirty work. Might a SEAL's opinion on corrosion resistance, edge holding, ergonomics, or 'toughness' be useful to Joe?

I think it might.

-John
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That was a beautiful post! I agree with everything! I would add that there is a lot of "reverse discrimination" out there...now if a knife is legitimately chosen by spec ops because it is superior in many ways, someone is still bound to say that it is "just marketing hype"...sheesh! And what is wrong with wanting something that is "overengineered"??? [rant not directed at you John]

RL
 
I think Mad Dog has a forum over at tacticalforums.com. I believe Kevin said somewhere that you get what you pay for...so you can count on MD knives not breaking/failing/chipping under extreme use. Or something like that - I'm not quoting verbatim.

However, I do believe that most 1/4inch thick knives with a good heat treat and a 40 degree included bevel would stand up to rigorous use in the field, regardless of branding/marketing representations....

my two Singapore cents...:)
 
The earlier poster had it right - most guys buy whatever's in the PX/BX because it's readily available and inexpensive. If it's lost or broken, they don't have to spend a week crying in their beer over some $400 piece of steel that has great marketing but cost a 1/4rd of an LES to get. See here for current pay rates:
http://www.dfas.mil/money/milpay/pay/2003paytable.pdf
You don't get rich in the military.

The people who buy the super expensive uber-knives in the military are few and far between. Very few. That isn't to say that they won't carry one if it's given to them, or unit purchased, or if given a super discount, but to actually go out and spend their own money on it is another matter. Because for most, knives are just tools. When it comes down to it there are many things higher on the personal purchase list.

So, when you hear a claim of "Used by Space Shuttle Door Gunners!" or something similar, take it with a grain of salt.
 
RL,

I agree completely on the 'reverse discrimination' notion. I have noticed it too.

The fact that a particular item may (or may not) be used by SEALs or whoever does not necessarily make it good, but neither does it make that item bad.

It is foolish to base your knife buying decisions on what someone elses needs are (which Gollnick correctly pointed out), but it is probably even more foolish to ignore advice or recomendations from people who use knives often.

Actually I'm sure there are a lot of military collectors who DO buy knives based solely on the fact that they are used by a particular military unit, and in THAT case it would make perfect sense. But, I don't think that's the kind of thing this thread was meant to discuss.

I think what this really boils down to is 'snobery' steming from the idea that "my knife is THE BEST, because SEAL team 6000 uses them exclusively to rip holes in submarines!!!" This is particualarly bad when it also involves a "...and your knife sucks..." mentality as well.

There are probably some AMAZING knives that no Spec Ops Type has ever even heard of, and there are probably some pieces of crap that LOTS of Spec Ops types use for one reason or another. The oposite is also probably true.

-John
 
Originally posted by RL
That was a beautiful post! I agree with everything! I would add that there is a lot of "reverse discrimination" out there...now if a knife is legitimately chosen by spec ops because it is superior in many ways, someone is still bound to say that it is "just marketing hype"...sheesh! And what is wrong with wanting something that is "overengineered"??? [rant not directed at you John]

RL
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I think that frequently what happens is somebody goes looking for specifics about how a tool is "superior in many ways" instead of taking the manufacturers' word for it. If they can't find any real specifics, then they dismiss it as marketing hype.

Another problem is that since everybody and their brother is claiming to be the "official product of killer comandoes" it becomes a bit difficult to decide which ones are "legitimately chosen".

Overengineered and overbuilt are different things.
A Ferrari is overengineered. A dump truck is overbuilt. Most "SEAL approved" knives are the latter.
 
Keep in mind that the US Military does not trademark its various unit names, mission names, etc., so anyone can claim, "As used by the Navy Seals in Desert Storm," or "The official knife of the Navy Seals," or "Seal Approved."

Why doesn't the US Military trademark and protect these names? Well, to apply for a trademark, your proposed mark must be used in interstate commerce. It is very difficult for the Pentagon to assert that fighting a war in Iraq is engaging in interstate commerce. And to say that the US Navy Seals are engaging in interstate commerce is very questionable under the Hatch Act, the law that prohibits the US Military from operating domestically except in extraordinary circumstances.

The bottom line is that the name "Navy Seals" stamped on something doesn't mean squat.
 
A dump truck is overbuilt.
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The quary just down the road from my house has one for sale.

If I were wanting a new car to commute around town in, to carry me and my briefcase from place to place, I might say to myself, "I really want a strong, rugged vehicle," and I might be tempted on that basis alone to buy that big dump truck as a commuter car.

Is it rugged? Yeah. Durrable? You bet.

But my guess is that it's a bit difficult to park.

If your mission is to haul around tons of rock, it's the perfect vehicle. But if your mission it to commute around town, even though it's rugged and durable, it's probably not your best choice.
 
When I was in 20th SFG (87-91) we were issued Leathermans and a really s**tty "scuba" knife that was pretty useless unless I was a bubblehead. Most of us bought our own stuff, I had a SOG fighter until it was stolen out of my kit bag then I bought a Buck nighthawk and it's been everywhere with me, a cheap and reliable knife.

What they do now is if a Commander can identify a special need not being served by current issue items, he can authorize a "local purchase" usually through the SOCOM contracting office or his IMPAQ card (if the purchase is small enough or he can get permission to break the purchase limit.) That's how they get them nifty GPS, silk undies and other stuff. My current unit is high drag low speed, but I have to do a lot of this civilian purchase stuff.

Why should you consider a SF/SEAL/Delta/FAST/Ninja Death Commando recommendation? Because it's sexier than saying you have an "officially sanctioned USFS Ranger knife", or a "Trotman Farms Rancher Special Field Knife." If you have similar needs then why discount the source of the info?

Will
 
This thread got pretty interesting.

Thanks fellas!....

I always wondered if anybody asked the folks in SF what they needed in a knife...

I had a chance to meet the guy...(what's his name...Jeez it was only 15 years ago.)from MAD DOG...when that knife became popular.
We talked for a bit. Actually he talked at me for quite a while. He told me about the stress relieving divots on the back of the blade...and he told me about the non conductive handle material...and he told me about the superior metallurgical techniques...AND he told me how the "TEAMS" were backed up to his front door, fighting each other to get "his" knife. It all seemed very impressive at the time.

Anyway...I had not thought about MAD DOG until about two months ago...when I read the MISSION was now the NEW contractor for the SEALs
SO I read the Mission Web Site...about their testing...and how MAD DOG was inferior to them....

I didn't think much about any of it...until I saw this thread...

Shane
 
Originally posted by Gollnick
Why did the US Navy pay several hundred dollars each for hammers?

On a submarine, every tool goes in an exactly fitted, padded place in drawer. This serves three very important functions. First, it assures that tools will be exactly where they should be in an emergency. Second, it makes it very easy to take inventory so that the sub won't put to sea for an extended mission without all necessary tools. And, third, it keeps the tools from rattling around creating noise which can give away a submarine's location.
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Gollnick,

This is true for some things such as delicate and calibrated tools dedicated for things such as maintenance and repair of missile/torpedo, navigation, and certain engineering systems.

General use tools are stored in tool boxes or cabinets, not padded.

While underway, the most noise comes from the galley.

Al P.
Submarine veteran
 
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