Knife sheeple (kneeple) ?

[jeegeet]

Hi guys.

After following knife magazines, knife forums posts, etc. I am starting to observe certain "trends" that make me think that our little knife world is developing it's own "sheeple". I don't want to attack anyone. I even caught myself "migrating" a little bit too.

I'd like to share these thoughts and see what other fellow knife nuts think about it.

• Growing political correctness of knife community We don't say knifes are weapons, or for self defense, etc. Where does it really lead?
  
  Let me stress that I totally understand the reasoning behind this "tool approach". Still, we are creating some sick atmosphere around a knife that was not only man's first tool but also one of first efficient weapons. We are being carried on the wave of self defense = BAD attitude. Where does it lead?
  I believe that if there will be enough money in knife community lawyers will sue no matter what is being said. I think that sheeple will want knives outlawed even more as "kneeple" argue thay knifes are just tools (who really believes that? - almost a good subject for a separate topic
  
  ).
  Some people carry heavy MagLites saying that they're good for whacking somebody in self-defense. Why those that elect knives to take that role should be put in an uncomfortable position of having to lie. I'd rather see that we give support to these guys.
  
• Knife "experts" that are afraid of using their knives. - People in this cathegory collect production knives and don't use them (usually because they don't want to put scratches on something that cost so much). Nothing wrong with that. But knives sitting in the drawer don't make anyone wiser about their "performance in field". Then these guys - often with good intent - contribute and spread information that is useless or misleading. Or perform tests of type "An apple peeled with BM710 tastes better than the one peeled with CRKT Apache. This is because of superior Axis lock used in BM710" (Love my BM710 by the way
  
  ). If everybody that uses their knife to open letters will "extrapolate" their experience into "field use" we will have a knife information Behemoth.
  I am not just paranoid. This already happens (for different reasons) in computer industry.
  
• People doubting sense of destructive tests. I've seen people wondering: "Why to do these desctuctive tests. These knives will never be used that way..." Well, then why in the hell to go through grinding tough steel, heat treating it, etc. if the thing will be used for opening letters ....
  Mike, Spark and all the others that do that, thank you for tough and destructive knife tests. Without it knives would evolve into pure collector items. The reason I am buying expensive knives is that they stand heavy use.
  
  Do you see sense in destructive car tests?
  

Cheers,
Kris


[This message has been edited by jeegeet (edited 04-24-2000).]

 

[brian w edginton]

Geez, Kris.....ever heard of analyzing something to death ?
Knives are tools. Weapons are tools used to inflict injury on other beings.
Seems to me that "political correctness" is a term invented by people who want to dump on a more generally acceptable view of the world because it does not suit their needs .
Your whole argument reeks of "straw man" logic......set up a doubtful scenario and destroy it with "logic" .
Sorry.....I don't mean to be any more insulting to you than you meant to be to all of those people outside of your version of " the knife community" and all of those within who don't meet your philosophical standards .

I suppose my post in response to your's will be regarded as "personal" while your post (aimed at 90% of the civilized world ) will be considered ok.....oh, well........
Such is life

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BrianWE

 

[Ferret]

Hoo wee, tough audience!! I thought there was some good stuff in there myself...

 

[Cougar Allen]

Trying to discuss three different topics on one thread never works; one of them will be discussed and the other two won't get the attention they deserve ... but I'm going to try to play along anyway.

Topic 1
It's the divide-and-rule principle and it's been used very successfully against our right to own guns, but so far hasn't been as successful against knives. There are some of the knife community agitating against giving knives names suggesting they could be used as weapons but that's about it ... I don't see any significant part of the knife community going along with the idea that certain kinds of knives are evil and should be criminalized in the hope that the knives they like will be left alone for a while. Although there are members of these forums who jawbone against advertising knives as weapons, most of those same people are as staunch in supporting the legitimacy of autos and balisongs and daggers as any of us.

The argument that we need the right to carry knives for purposes other than self-defense will not work, though, because the fact is many people don't carry a knife and they seem to get through their day without ... somehow....

The argument we need the right to carry knives to cut seat belts in emergencies won't work either, because the enemy will produce statistics proving that knives commit more crimes and accidentally stab more people than they cut out of seat belts and therefore if no one carried a knife it would save more lives than it would sacrifice. Whether that's true or not doesn't matter at all; they'll lie outright if necessary just as they have about gun crimes and accidents.

Lies can only be defeated by the truth. The truth is we need the right to carry knives to defend ourselves from attack. Self-defense is the most basic of all human rights, and, believe it or not, we not only have the right to defend ourselves, we even have the right to be prepared to defend ourselves.

Topic 2
Those people are easy to ignore. "I've had ten Mad Dogs in my humidity-controlled sock drawer for ten years and not one of them has broken in all that time" ... well, good for you ... now, back to the discussion....

Topic 3
Lost tourists wander into every long thread about heavy-duty knives and say knives "should" only be used for cutting ... knives are not "meant" to be "abused" like this ... those people are even easier to ignore. Maybe someday they'll figure out why some knives are made 1/4" (6.35mm) thick or maybe they never will ... maybe they'll go on using axes to chop and split wood and crowbars to pry with and never find out how useful a heavy-duty knife can be ... it's hard to see how to help them....

It's hard to see how they'll ever find out that a knife is often better than any ax or crowbar unless they try it, and they don't seem likely to try it. I'm afraid there will always be people posting "Get a hatchet" and "Get a crowbar" ... might as well just chuckle and go on to the next post in the thread ... it's hard to see what else we can do....



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-Cougar Allen :{)
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This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.

 

[the4th]

Well, since I was asked....

1) Sheeple, etc -

I call my knife a tool because that is what it is. If you want to call your knife a weapon, then YOU know what YOUR intentions are with YOUR knife. As far as ANYONE knows, my intent is NEVER to use my knife as a weapon.

Comprende?

In an ideal world, we could all carry the latest and greatest MicroSpyderBenchDog Gut Ripper 2100 and flail it about exuberantly and proclaim to the world, "I am a knife-nut, hear me roar." Unfortunately, we live in the REAL world where the only thing the sheeple would hear is, "I am a nut."

When I first started pulling my knife (knives) out at work to use them to open packages, cut string, pull staples, pick splinters, cut cakes, open jammed doors, etc. Sheeple squirmed, screamed, and bleated their fear. Now it's been a year, and A LOT (I wish ALL) of those people now ask, "Hey, Joel, do you have something I can use to open/pick/pry/cut this with?" or they say, "Wow, that was handy! Glad you were here."

Why the change in attitude? Edge-u-cation

on their part. A little maturity on dealing with people on my part. Instead on getting up and blasting the group of sheeple and yelling about my "rights" to carry whatever WEAPON I choose, I talk to each sheep individually about what I useful tool it is that I carry.

No, not everyone responds positively. No, not everyone has turned to my way of thinking. But things have gotten better. Wouldn't you like your peers and co-workers testify in court that "That guy is always coming around with a useful tool and saving the day." Instead of, "That guy waves his weapons about willy-nilly." I know I would.

2) Knife use -

I have a few knives that I don't use because the can't be replaced if they are lost, broken, or worn out. To me, they are "collectors." The next guy that owns them may think they are the neatest tools (or weapons

) he has ever owned and will use them accordingly. I'm not AFRAID to use them, I just choose not to. I would if I NEEDED to though. Collectability of anything is in the eye of the collector. A friend of mine has a bunch of Precious Moments figurines scattered about her house. Talk about worthless. You can't USE them for anything, although her husband and I think they would make GREAT 200 yard targets for plinking with the .308.

3) Destructive testing -

I agree with you. I'm all for it. I might even volunteer a knife someday if I am feeling generous. Will I ever need to wedge my knife into a rock face and use it as a piton or step? Man, I hope not. But what if I do? Will it take it? <u>CAN</u> I cut the top off of my car with it <u>if</u> I need to?


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Visit Joel's Place
"You ought to weigh everything that's proposed by the government...against the loss of personal freedom." -- Ronald Reagan

 

[MNH]

Jeegeet,

Re: Defense

Arizona is country, Vermont is Country, Almost everyone carries a knife in the country, and no one thinks twice about it.

Brian is right, anything that is used to accomplish something else is a tool. Pots and pans in the kitchen are tools, A rake or a shovel is a tool, A hammer or a saw is a tool. A knife is a tool. A gun is a tool. A weapon is a specific type of tool. A frying pan, a shovel, a knife of a car for that matter can be a weapon depending on how it is employed.

Now specifically for defense. If defense is actually necessary, your initial goal is to use any means possible to survive the encounter. A knife is a tool which may allow you accomplish that goal. Assuming you are able to accomplish your initial goal, physical survival, you are then faced with a secondary goal, (now primary the goal) surviving the criminal justice system.

(I am really looking forward to a good critique of my reasoning here especially from any LEOs hanging around.) I am going to out on a limb here and tell you that I am sure that if I let go of my limb I will fall out of my tree. I am equally sure that if you (or I) were to use a knife in self defense, we would regret it for a very long time.

I believe that in the community in which I live, in the unlikely event that I had to defend my self and I did so by shooting and killing my attacker with a handgun that I would end up spending the night at home in my own bed. The weapon would be taken as evidence, I would visit the police station, but assuming the facts suggested that it was in fact self defense I do not believe that I would even be charged.

Now, change the scenario. Everything is exactly the same except, for some reason I end up using a knife to injure or kill my attacker. My wife is going to be down at the police station feeding me peanuts through the bars. I am not going to home for a long time!

I am NOT saying that this is how it SHOULD be. Only that this is how I believe it WOULD be. As soon as I use a knife as a weapon, I am instantly no longer a righteous person who was forced to defend himself, I am instantly a willing participant in a fight on equal footing (equally guilty) with my attacker.

I am not sure why knives are viewed in this way, perhaps because we associate knives when used as weapons as offensive rather than defensive. We say "Stabbed in the back", "He knifed me", "A knife in the dark" "Cloak and Dagger" as common expressions in our language. Note that none of these expressions are particularly complementary to the undefined person holding the knife. Perhaps it is because we assume that a gun is unambiguous and allows the attacker to withdraw. Perhaps it is simply that a gun works at distance, and does not require us to get our hands bloody, or to appear that we wanted to get our hands bloody.

I guess my thought would be that a knife is a very good tool, It is not a "good" weapon and should far down on your list of choices.


Mike

 

[MNH]

I finally figured out how to get a double post!

Sorry


Mike

[This message has been edited by MNH (edited 04-24-2000).]

 

[Elvislives]

I'm no Crocodile Dundee, but here goes:

1. An M-16 is a tool to a soldier. Doesn't really matter what we call them, now does it?

2. I'm always amazed to see collections of 150 knives that never get used. Must be nice, I have a great wife but even she wouldn't understand that!

3. I'm for destructive testing, who wouldn't wnat to see something pushed past its limit!!! But let's face it, destruction testing on an elegant $1500 custom knife is probably futile.

.02

Brandon

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"You should never never doubt what nobody is sure about..."

 

[Velitrius]

Wanna know what I think? Scroll back up the page and read what the4th said.

Yeah, there's a Precious Moments altar at my house too.

 

[James Mattis]

On defense, even if we win, here or there, the argument in society and politics that self defense and preparation for self defense are good and not evil, knives "for protection" will still be a problem. There are places in the USA where an adult in full possession of his or her civil rights can (usually after filling out some forms) lawfully carry a concealed handgun for protection, but where carrying a knife "for protection" is frowned upon.

When seen as weapons, knives are seen as sneaky and nasty weapons. Knives as weapons are more politically incorrect than guns, or swords, or spears, or bows, or clubs, or hand grenades, or tanks, or howitzers, or fighter jets. Short of nukes, about the only weapon more eeeevil than a knife or dagger is anything poisonous. This has been the case for many centuries, from long before anybody heard of "liberals."

It may be the very universality and necessity of having knives about that makes people see them as especially evil when used as weapons. When somebody uses a normally peaceful object to kill, it is perhaps more of a blow to the peace of mind of the rest of us than if he used a purpose-built weapon. For instance, the guy last week who used his car to push his ex-girlfriend's car into the path of an oncoming train, killing her and three other people, made national news, more than if he had simply pulled a gun and shot them dead.

[A related, if non-kinfely thought: Normally "protected" places as crime scenes also disturb us more. A kid's chance of being shot in a school are, even after Columbine and the rest, very remote, but our society is now devoting a lot of energy to that remote threat.]

If we want to directly confront centuries of cross-cultural loathing of the the use of knives as weapons, we may want to take a lesson or two from the gay rights movement. I'm serious. In both cases, it's a fight against an ancient "Ewwww-yuck!" factor. Even Alexander the Great, king though he was, couldn't have actually married his boyfriend, but there is now one state in the USA that's about to provide for same-sex "civil unions."

For both armed self-defense in general, and for self defense with cutlery in particular, perhaps we should imagine that we're talking about sex in a society that is very very "socially conservative," so puritanical that heterosexual husbands and wives are considered bold if they hold hands in public. That is the sort of context we are dealing with when we talk about carrying a knife "for protection."


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

 

[SDouglas]

Before labelling members of the knife community as sheeple or kneeple be sure that you really hear what they are saying.

So far I have not heard anyone say that it is evil or wrong to use a knife for Self-Defense. I for one strongly support the right to use ANY means available to defend life and property when attacked.

However, I do not support emphasizing the violent aspects of knives to the sheeple with violent advertising and names. There is a difference between protecting the right to Self-Defense and shoving violence in the face of the Sheeple.

I believe that it is much easier to defend the use of a knife for Self-Defense if it is clearly considered a last resort by the entire Knife Community.

I can hear the DA cross examination now.

DA: Mr Knifenut, you say that you used your knife for Self Defense as a last resort after exhausting all possibilities to avoid a violent confrontation?

Knifenut: Yes, Sir.

DA: Come now Mr Knifenut, Didn't you specifically buy and carry your "Rambotronic Death Dagger" so that you wouldn't have to avoid violent confrontations?



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AKTI Member No. A000370
Email: DouglasSctt@Netscape.net

 

[dogboye]

Mr. Knifenut: No sir.

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iktomi

 

[anthony cheeseboro]

One thing that proponents of knives for self defense have to ackowledge is are the circumstances under which knives are most commonly used as weapons. Personally, most knifings I know of happen at bars or parties or in scuffles between people who have questionable reputations. How many of us know of store owners who stabbed robbers or at least who0 chased them away at knifepoint? Who knows of people who stabbed home invaders in the middle of the night/ can anyone name somebody who slashed a carjacker? My point is that knives are rarely used in situations where the wielder of the blade is clearly the4 victim of a crime. Knives tend to used in circumstances where there has been struggle, often between two people who are not blameless. I think the predjudice against the knife as a weapon has to be seen in this context.

 

[Mr. Dave]

Originally posted by jeegeet:
Or perform tests of type "An apple peeled with BM710 tastes better than the one peeled with CRKT Apache. This is because of superior Axis lock used in BM710" (Love my BM710 by the way

).

No way. Apaches peel apples way better than 710s. 710s are only good for scraping off the little round sticker with the "4010 Red Delicious" product identifier. Apaches are stem popping sharp right out of the box and one of the best apple peeling values on the market. Besides, have you ever tried getting three day old apple skin out of an axis lock?

David

[This message has been edited by Mr. Dave (edited 04-24-2000).]

 

[Brett Bennett]

I believe what many have said about the defensive role of knives. It seems to me that most close encounter situations where a knife could be employed, its use would be deemed excessive. For example, using a knife to defend oneself in a fist fight has a relatively high potential for death (comparatively speaking).
I do, however, believe that knives may be lawfully employed as weapons. Certainly, the ability of firearms to 'reach out and touch someone' is more effective than the weilding of a knife in a defensive situation. My reasons for carrying a knife are not primarily for protection, but for their overall usefullness.
In defensive situations, I would personally prefer to use either a firearm or my natural weapons (foremost my brain).

 

[not2sharp]

Re: issue #1

Forget political correctness.

I rather call a knife a tool because its a higher standard to meet. I want a knife that can perform as a tool. Virtually anything can be used as a weapon - cheap kitchen knives probably win this honor more often than anything else. Who needs edge retention on a weapon (how many people do you plan to stab? - get real).

The real challange is in producing a good tool. Which is precisely how we use our knives 99.999999% of the time (when we are not accidentally stabbing ourselves

).

Re: issue #2

There is nothing wrong with collecting knives. There is plenty of information that can be gleamed through observation prior to using the knife. Balance, grinds, fit and finish can all be determined prior to use. Yes, some knifewriters need to be held to task for the liberties they may have taken.

By the same token, field use has its limitations. When you test a knife you are observing how that knife performs for you; it may perform differently for other people. I am sure we could find some out there who can butcher a bull moose with a razor blade in under 10 minutes. I doubt the rest of us can get that kind of performance from a razor blade.

This issue really comes down to honesty. Its not what you do, or don't do, but how it gets reported that counts.

Re.: issue #3

Distructive testing is interesting; but it takes real care to make our observations relevant. Otherwise, it is just a single point of data on the continuum (e.g. yes it broke when a 200Lb person step on it - what does this tell me about what will happen when a 150Lb person steps on it? - Nothing).

 

[James Mattis]

Good point in favor of carrying a quality knife! If it's a "criminal weapon" it's a single-use item. The fact that you went for reliability and good edge-holding shows that it's a tool for long-term cutting of inanimate objects, even if it has "racing stripes" and a "cool" name.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

 

[jeegeet]

Thanks for responses guys.

SDouglas, I am not trying to label. Noticed the question mark in the title?

It has meaning. Ten years ago everybody would laugh their rear off about mentioning that in your SUV you couldn't roll windows down because some "not so smart" person had their "not so smart" kids fell of and sued... I am talking about trends here. And as I stated at the beginning, I caught myself catching on as well. And analyzing stuff to death

, you got me man!

the4th! I read you! On purpose, I didn't say that clearly in my post: I am using and carrying my knives purely as tools. I know very little about using a knive for self-defense and would rather avoid it. But if I am pulled over and an officer asks a standard question "Sir, any weapons in the car?". I am going to say. "No, but I have two (or more

) knives". If you wish, you may just say short "No" and then try to produce a "Knife as a tool" essay when one is found on you.

What I mean to say here is that Knives are not considered just tools. Notice, you carry a gun, everybody knows it is a 100% weapon. You carry a pencil (that you can use as a stabbing weapon as well) you're fine because most people use pencils to write. Knives ... they are in the middle. That's why adds "Seal knife", etc. get's them sold. People like to hear that they have something performing as a weapon even if they use it most of the time as a tool. And I stress this People like to hear as "Blade" magazine call to avoid words "tactical, seal, etc." around knifes isn't going to change a thing. Knives are not just tools unless you can convince everybody around about it.

That's why I am starting to think that "knives as tools" campaign will fail misearbly to achieve all its goals. First of all notice one thing. There are many advisors saying "Just say your knife is for cutting boxes, etc.". Well, according to the current law carrying a blade under xxx=4inches most of the time is legal. It doesn't say for what purpose. Everybody is still allowed to protect themselves with means that are legal (including knives). This does not constitute an intent to harm anyone. Now, you're being often told "Do not admit your knife is for self defense". What this means is that you give away your right to use a legal means which (a blade under 4" or whatever) to protect your life. I ask WHY? In the art of negotiation concessions are being made to get something back. What do we get back for this concession? Or are we just giving in?

MNH (Mike) I am a software engineer. I live in a city. People always raise eyebrows about me and my knives. I am not tryig to convince them "they're tools". There is a say "only guilty ones explain themselves". Instead I try to show: "knives are dangerous, but I am responsible enough to handle it".

...

Oh well, time to get some sleep. Even knife nuts need it (especially those that have to get up to work

).

Kris

 

[MNH]

Jeegeet,

Your question (from a police officer) "are there any weapons in the car" when you are stopped is well taken. I have been asked this question once, a number of years ago in the middle of the night in Pennsylvania. I had a headlight out (unknown to me) and an NRA decal on the rear window. I know that having an NRA decal is asking for trouble, but I will not remove it. I wish I remember the exact words, did he ask if I had a firearm or did he ask any weapons in the car? I don't remember. I know that I interpreted the question as firearm, and I told him I had a Ruger Single Action taken apart in a locked case inside a locked toolbox. The police officer showed absolutely no interest in the revolver from that point on. He did however ask to see a knife that was sitting on the console. He looked at the knife and without comment handed it back to me along with a defective equipment warning. I told him that I hoped I had not caused him any undue concern and he told me where he thought I might find the required bulb. We exchanged goodnights and went our separate ways.

I wish I could remember the exact question, I do know that I interpreted the question to mean firearm, which in its self may be important. If the question was "Weapon" I disqualified knife as weapon without a second thought and responded to firearm. a knife was seen in the car and its presence was noted and allowed to pass without comment. If the question was firearm, I answered the question, and the knife was an after thought.

Are LEOs taught to ask weapon? a broad question which may produce a variety of interesting answers and useful information, even thought it might not produce all the information wanted. Are they trained to ask for specific weapons by name so there is no misunderstanding? Maybe he said firearm or other weapon and sense I don't think of a knife as a weapon I told him about the revolver. In any case the knife was seen, noted, and passed over as a non-issue.

Who knows?? not me!

Mike

 

[mnblade]

I once spent an unfortunate evening in a North Florida county jail while my friend was being processed on DUI charges. I was the passenger (we were idiots back then; thank God no one was hurt). Anyway, as they were bringing us into the station, the deputy asked if we had any weapons. I told him "no, but I have this pocket knife," and handed him my medium-sized lockback folder. He simply put it in his pocket and we went back to the booking office. After all the paper-work was done and they told me I was free to go, the officer escorted me out of the building and "oh, yeah, here's your knife." I said thank you. Considering what nimrods my friend and I were (college kids on a beach-side bender), it was a very civil exchange. I have found that, if you treat LEOs with respect, they generally will do the same.