Knife Show Drawings

martinr

martinr

Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
315
Those of you that attend shows know that some of the most in demand makers have drawings at shows to determine who gets to buy a knife. Some makers have you write your name on a slip of paper, some use a deck of cards and have you tear the card in half to match up with the other half, some use numbered tickets. It's the only way to give people attending the show a chance at a knife and I think it's fair. But, how fair is it when the show promoter enters into the drawing? Should he compete with the paying customers for the chance to buy a knife if his name is drawn? If the promoter advertises his show and states that certain makers will have a drawing isn't he decreasing the chances of attendees getting picked by entering himself? And, what if the show promoter is also a dealer and has a website and intends to sell the knife if he is chosen in the drawing? Is that fair? Is it good for the maker?

This isn't a hypothetical scenario folks, it actually happened last weekend at the Plaza Show. I went to the show for specific reasons, to enter the Ken Onion drawing, (Ken Onion and his knives never made it to the show) to enter the John Young drawing, and to enter the Emerson drawing. I didn't get picked in the Emerson drawing but that was just the luck of the draw. John Young had four knives, the best in my opinion being an amber stag handled New York Special. I put my name in the hat and at noon the drawing happens. Guess who is the first person picked? The show promoter is the first name drawn and he takes the NYS! After the drawing I ask him if he is going to sell it and he says yes. I ask how much and he says he has to figure out what the knife should sell for. He says it will be for sale on his website.

Sour grapes on my part? I don't think so. I've run this by some non knife people and they see it as quite unfair and not the way it should be done. What do you Forumites think?
 
hmmm...
 
If the show promoter is geting one entry in the draw like everyone else, I don't really have a problem with it. Why does the fact that he is a dealer and will re-sell it bother you so much? A good many collectcors who are drawn on high-demand knives will turn around and flip them right away. Are dealers excluded from drawings as a general rule? What would be the basis for their exclusion?

Roger

PS - did you let John know that you thought his drawing was very unfair?
 
Wouldn't the show promoter be putting on the show because he enjoys and makes a living off knives? Why should the show promoter not have a shot at the knives too? I'd think it would be more fair to give the show promoter a lottery ticket than say, let him get 1st dibs on pieces before the show even opens.
 
Martin, I like drawings. too. I don't think there is a problem with the promoter entering the drawings, though. Doesn't Ed Wormser enter drawings at his shows? I think Dave Harvey does, but I'm not sure.

I'll bet Dan was thinking "This is going to be all over the Internet that I won".
Several years ago he and Pam were both pulled in Las Vegas for one of John's knives and people got po'd about that. The next year my wife and I got pulled 1 & 2 and Dan said "Now they'll get off my back" LOL

Win
 
While a promoter can do whatever they want to at their own show, they should not be surprised when less people show up.....
 
RogerP said:
If the show promoter is geting one entry in the draw like everyone else, I don't really have a problem with it. Why does the fact that he is a dealer and will re-sell it bother you so much? A good many collectcors who are drawn on high-demand knives will turn around and flip them right away. Are dealers excluded from drawings as a general rule? What would be the basis for their exclusion?

Roger

PS - did you let John know that you thought his drawing was very unfair?
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Roger, it's not that I think dealers should be excluded from drawings, in fact my desire to get in the Emerson drawing and get picked is so I can re-sell the knife for a profit. But this isn't just a dealer, it's the guy putting on the show and charging admission so people can have a shot at a knife in a drawing. When he enters he is entering for free and has promoted his show based on the idea that paying customers will have a chance at a knife. He decreases the chance of getting picked with his entry. At the Solvang Show last April the show promoters had a policy of not entering into any drawings for knives to re-sell, they did this to be fair to the paying customers at the show. Here is a question for you. The Boston Art Knife Classic is going to take place in a week or so. Its an all drawing show with a hefty entrance fee and limited to a certain amount of people attending. Would it be OK for Paul Shindler (the promoter) to enter into the drawings and then re-sell the knife on his website if he is picked? Would you pay to attend the show if you knew that was part of the deal?

Also, I did not complain to John Young. "His" drawing was not unfair, it wasn't "his" drawing, it was a drawing at the Plaza Show for his knives. What is unfair in my opinion is the promoter entering the drawing for free and after giving the impression that the drawing is the best way for people to get a chance to buy an in demand knife directly from the maker at table price.
 
I don't have a problem with the promoter entering the drawing, he's promoting and putting on the show to get customers through the door to buy knives. Many, many dealers get in on these drawing for the same reason you did, to buy low and sell high.
The Bose lottery at the blade show is a perfect example. Everyone gets in on it, even other makers, I have.

Are you more annoyed because it was his show and he got picked first? What if David Ellis, Mike Donato, or Paul Shlinder were picked first? They would all most likely re-sell the knife at a profit.

What annoys me is when customers enter their names as well as everyone they brought to the show with them. Their wife, their kids, and cousins that met them at the show who don't even collect knives.
 
What Chuck said.

The promoter has taken a risk to put on the show has had to shell out cash up front, and has put a lot of work into it. Why should they not get a chance.

I have never entered a drawing for the purpose of flipping a knife and have been lucky on 5 occasions. Today I am carrying a knife of Tony's from one of the Blade lottos. I enjoy them even if I do not win. Have some fun with it.
 
I'm totally shocked by the responses here. How about this scenario. The show promoter has five employees working for him at the show and he tells them to enter the drawing and if one gets picked then the knife gets put on the website at double table price. The employee is working for an hourly wage and entering the drawing is part of his or her job. Fair? Ethical? Would you pay admission if you knew that was the deal?

I've noticed that in contests or drawings for a prize that are advertised on TV or the radio or in newspapers there is always a condition that employees and principals of the company or group putting on the contest or drawing are excluded from entering. Isn't that done to make it fair for the entrants and to avoid any perception of unfairness? Why is it any different at a knife show?
 
It is different because the knife is being sold rather than given away. This case does not represent a prize per say. If it was a free knife and the prize used as a promotion of the show that it a totally different thing than a drawing for the right to purchase.

As far as stuffing the boxes. That sucks. People do it. I would rather have fun than dwell on it. But keep in mind I am a goofball at shows, wandering around with a huge goofy smile all weekend with friends is one of my favorite things to do. :D.
 
My impression at shows has been that many collectors and dealers show up with their whole family and have far more than their "one name" in the hat.
 
martinr said:
But this isn't just a dealer, it's the guy putting on the show and charging admission so people can have a shot at a knife in a drawing. When he enters he is entering for free and has promoted his show based on the idea that paying customers will have a chance at a knife. He decreases the chance of getting picked with his entry.
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1) Entering for free? I'm only guessing, but my guess is he has more invested in the show than you do with your travel costs and entry ticket.

2) Every person who enters the draw decreases your chance of winning. Why does this ONE entry aggravate you so much? Do you really think your chances would be THAT significantly improved if that single entry were deleted?

martinr said:
Here is a question for you. The Boston Art Knife Classic is going to take place in a week or so. Its an all drawing show with a hefty entrance fee and limited to a certain amount of people attending. Would it be OK for Paul Shindler (the promoter) to enter into the drawings and then re-sell the knife on his website if he is picked? Would you pay to attend the show if you knew that was part of the deal?
Click to expand...

It would be okay by me. I could only afford to be in so many drawings anyway, and my chances are what they are.

martinr said:
Also, I did not complain to John Young. "His" drawing was not unfair, it wasn't "his" drawing, it was a drawing at the Plaza Show for his knives.
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Really - did the Plaza Show set the rules for John's drawing and for all the drawings at the show? I wasn't there, I don't know. But generally speaking, shows that aren't "all draw" let individual makers decide whether to hold a draw and how to go about it. Are you sure it was up to the show director and not up to John? Are you really sure?

martinr said:
What is unfair in my opinion is the promoter entering the drawing for free and after giving the impression that the drawing is the best way for people to get a chance to buy an in demand knife directly from the maker at table price.
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I don't see how the maker entering the draw changes in any meaningful way the chance of attendees to get a knife. You seem to think that if he had not entered, you would have won. That is possible, certainly, but your chances would have essentially been the same. I'm assuming more than 2 or 3 guys dropped on John's draw, right?

Roger
 
martinr said:
I'm totally shocked by the responses here. How about this scenario. The show promoter has five employees working for him at the show and he tells them to enter the drawing and if one gets picked then the knife gets put on the website at double table price.
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Are you suggesting that is what happened here? Because that is a different situation. What if a collector does the same - has 5 family members show up and enter the draw? Do you find that objectionable, or only if a show promoter does it?

Bastid said:
It is different because the knife is being sold rather than given away. This case does not represent a prize per say. If it was a free knife and the prize used as a promotion of the show that it a totally different thing than a drawing for the right to purchase.
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Bingo. Give that Bastid a ceegar. :)

Roger
 
Seems to me that it's just very poor form for a promoter to take away the chance of a win from an attendee.

Bob
 
While in practice, it may not be immoral or illegal to enter your name into a hat for a lottery that you've provided for others to enter, I agree that the optics are generally not good.

I'm involved in draws all the time, in fact I'll be drawing tickets tonight for a mountain bike movie premier that the club which I am president of is hosting. I have and never will enter my ticket stub into these drawings, as it just doesn't seem right to me.

Whether or not the won item is resold after the fact is not really the point I don't think. It just seems more gracious I guess to take yourself out of the running if you're the one doing the draw. What if the knifemaker puts a ticket into his own hat, wins the knife, buys it from himself, and then sells it for even more profit? I know that seems ridiculous, but it also doesn't sit right with me that the person orchestrating a draw should be allowed entry into it, and to me that's only one step removed from the ridiculous scenario I just mentioned.

Definitely a double edged topic. I can certainly see the other side to this, as this is a topic I've wrestled with personally over many years of doing draws.
 
I have found them to be the bane of knifeshows....especially for the makers that don't have the following to 'draw a crowd'.

Folks keep their $$$'s in-pocket hoping to get drawn....like going to an auction and getting outbid after waiting for hours....takes ALL the fun out of it, IMHO.
 
Martin,

I'll say this.....I have found Dan Delavan to be a VERY fair minded knife dealer.

He was one of the very first dealers to work with John Young, and has been very active in promoting John as a maker.

Dan needs inventory in order to continue making a living. Please be assured, promoting a show like Dan does, especially in the beginning stages, is much more beneficial to the makers and collectors than it is for the show promoter. I wouldn't be surprised if Dan broke even or even lost a little $$ on this first show....I also have no doubt that it will grow exponentially, as Dan seems to have the Midas touch when it comes to shows.

With that....John is very fair minded as well. He doesn't "jump" collectors that he likes up the food chain, and when I last checked with him, he was backlogged 6-8 YEARS. Dan has to get in line with previous orders and will not get anything quicker.....as a John Young dealer, he has as much, if not more mandate to get the inventory how and when he can.

I just think that John should have made 4 NY Specials for the show, they were sweet.;)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
Martin,

I'll say this.....I have found Dan Delavan to be a VERY fair minded knife dealer.

He was one of the very first dealers to work with John Young, and has been very active in promoting John as a maker.

Dan needs inventory in order to continue making a living. Please be assured, promoting a show like Dan does, especially in the beginning stages, is much more beneficial to the makers and collectors than it is for the show promoter. I wouldn't be surprised if Dan broke even or even lost a little $$ on this first show....I also have no doubt that it will grow exponentially, as Dan seems to have the Midas touch when it comes to shows.

With that....John is very fair minded as well. He doesn't "jump" collectors that he likes up the food chain, and when I last checked with him, he was backlogged 6-8 YEARS. Dan has to get in line with previous orders and will not get anything quicker.....as a John Young dealer, he has as much, if not more mandate to get the inventory how and when he can.

I just think that John should have made 4 NY Specials for the show, they were sweet.;)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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I doubt Dan or John even gave the drawing and who entered it a passing thought. Agreed, they both are nice, decent, honest people. But I look at it like Lorien does, it just doesn't seem like the right way to do it.

Four New York Specials would have been nice but not as nice as getting to handle that Dixon Fighter. I'd like to enter a drawing for that.
 
martinr said:
Four New York Specials would have been nice but not as nice as getting to handle that Dixon Fighter. I'd like to enter a drawing for that.
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Lorien may have given the subject a lot of thought, and there MAY be many analogies in the knife world, but right now...drawings ARE the fairest way for a hot maker to do a show, and Dan has no moral imperative to recuse himself.

I don't know if John makes a Dixon Fighter, but Thad Buchanan does and it is VERY close to mine....I have one of Thad's and have been able to compare them side by side with Phil Lobred.

Thad got an award at the show for his Wilderness knife....Bob Loveless gave Thad some of the Loveless logos to use at Thad's discretion because he was impressed with the quality of the work, and for no other reason.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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