Knife Show Drawings

[BowieBooster]

Why should the promoter have a chance? He has CHOSEN to promote the show. Yes, he has taken a risk, invested money, etc., but that is his choice, and HE is the one profiting if it is successful. It is his own BUSINESS endeavor. Some of you are saying it's fair for him to compete with his paying customers because the show HE promoted may not make a profit for him???

He is enticing people to PAY to attend in order to have a chance at a drawing. If he himself is entering the drawing for every maker for whom there is the potential to make money above table price, what he has basically done is gotten other people to pay to congregate all the makers there for his advantage and at other's expense in order to give himself a crack at obtaining knives from every maker for resale. I don't like it. If you want to enter drawings, buy a ticket to a show you're not promoting and take your chances like everyone else.

The business about the employees -- if not a hypothetical -- goes beyond immorality in my opinion! Collectors that drag family and friends to tip the odds in their favor? I don't know what you can do about "friends," but you can certainly limit drawings to one entry per family. It's your drawing, you can set the rules, and I think that would be a fair thing to do. And, I highly doubt that the promoter having employees enter drawings for his benefit scenario has never happened at a knife show. What some people will sink to in order to get what they want can often defy general belief. If that wasn't the case here, I don't think you should throw that out as a "hypothetical," because that REALLY sets forth an implication of major impropriety by the promoter, and if that wasn't the case, it is HIGHLY unfair and injurious to his professional reputation.

You threw it out there -- did it happen or did it not?

 

[RogerP]

Martin,

I'll say this.....I have found Dan Delavan to be a VERY fair minded knife dealer.

He was one of the very first dealers to work with John Young, and has been very active in promoting John as a maker.

Dan needs inventory in order to continue making a living. Please be assured, promoting a show like Dan does, especially in the beginning stages, is much more beneficial to the makers and collectors than it is for the show promoter. I wouldn't be surprised if Dan broke even or even lost a little $$ on this first show....I also have no doubt that it will grow exponentially, as Dan seems to have the Midas touch when it comes to shows.

With that....John is very fair minded as well. He doesn't "jump" collectors that he likes up the food chain, and when I last checked with him, he was backlogged 6-8 YEARS. Dan has to get in line with previous orders and will not get anything quicker.....as a John Young dealer, he has as much, if not more mandate to get the inventory how and when he can.

I just think that John should have made 4 NY Specials for the show, they were sweet.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

STeven - do you happen to know if the parameters of the drawing(s) were set by the show promoter or by the maker(s)?

Roger

 

[Kohai999]

If he himself is entering the drawing for every maker for whom there is the potential to make money above table price, what he has basically done is gotten other people to pay to congregate all the makers there for his advantage and at other's expense in order to give himself a crack at obtaining knives from every maker for resale. I don't like it. If you want to enter drawings, by a ticket to a show your not promoting and take your chances like everyone else.

1. Sorry, I disagree with the first point. It's a low $15.00 one day entry fee to get into the show. THIS show put the following makers in the same room:

Bill Ankrom, Thad Buchanan, Joel Chamblin, Bill Coffey, Dawson Knives, Laurent Doussot, Duane Dwyer,Emerson Knives, Brian Forrest, Dennis Friedly, Stan Fujisaka, Jeff Halopoff, Koji Hara, Phil Hartsfield Jr, Roy Humenick, Rick Hinderer, Mitch Jenkins, Ryuichi Kawamura, Steven Koster, Greg Lightfoot,
Kirby Lambert, Scot Matsuoka, Kansei Matsuno, Mike McClure, Jeff Morgan, Mel Nishiuchi, Hiroaki Ohta, Keith Ouye, W. D. Pease, Darrel Ralph, Richard Rogers, Bill Ruple, Eugene Shadley, Chris Stanko, Steel Flame, Shosui Takeda, Masao Takahashi, Leon Thompson, Brian Tighe, Shigeru
Mike Tyre, Al Warren, Melvin Watanabe, Richard Wheeler, Hans Weinmueller,
Daniel Winkler and John Young.

This is many more GOOD Canada, Hawaii, and Japan makers than I have ever seen on the west coast before. Yes it MAY be good for Dan, but I assure you, it was far better for the makers and collectors.

2. I have NEVER not seen Dan Delavan make the effort to travel the entire west coast to attend a show, and pay to get in, not only him, but his wife Pam too. He SUPPORTS the community.

STeven - do you happen to know if the parameters of the drawing(s) were set by the show promoter or by the maker(s)?

Roger

The maker ran the drawing as they saw fit.


Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[BowieBooster]

Wait a second, I thought I remembered you commenting on drawings before, Martin. Didn't you post THIS in a thread about the Chicago show?

"I'm at the show. I'm not exaggerating, sales were basically non existent. There were a few bright spots but few is the operative word. Attendance was poor, I doubt more the 25 collectors showed up. The room was just empty. That said I was picked in the Lake drawing, the SRJ drawing, and three times (two friends and myself) in the Emerson drawing. The Lake and Johnson are sold and the Emersons will be too. I wa fortunate but was lucky mainly because there weren't many people in the drawings ..."

Wasn't that an admission on your part that you brought "friends" with you to triple your own odds in the drawings? If I'm misreading what seems to be pretty clear English, please correct me. If not, what, you're mad that the promoter offset one of your own shills???? Jesus K-Rist, the nerve.

 

[BowieBooster]

STeven,

Respectfully taken. We've all got the right to our own opinions.

 

[RogerP]

Seems to me that it's just very poor form for a promoter to take away the chance of a win from an attendee.

Bob

I get the optics point Bob. I remember when it was being discussed as to whether CKCA board members should be permitted to enter the draw for the most recent charity knife. I suggested the optics might not be good if a board member were drawn for the prize. I remember not getting a lot of support for that concern.

But optics aside, I don't think it's unfair for a promoter to drop his name in the hat for a purchase draw.

Roger

 

[RogerP]

The maker ran the drawing as they saw fit.

Thanks - that is what I expected. And once again I am left to wonder why, if people have issues with drawings, they complain to everyone BUT the person responsible.

Roger

 

[martinr]

Why should the promoter have a chance? He has CHOSEN to promote the show. Yes, he has taken a risk, invested money, etc., but that is his choice, and HE is the one profiting if it is successful. It is his own BUSINESS endeavor. Some of you are saying it's fair for him to compete with his paying customers because the show HE promoted may not make a profit for him???

He is enticing people to PAY to attend in order to have a chance at a drawing. If he himself is entering the drawing for every maker for whom there is the potential to make money above table price, what he has basically done is gotten other people to pay to congregate all the makers there for his advantage and at other's expense in order to give himself a crack at obtaining knives from every maker for resale. I don't like it. If you want to enter drawings, buy a ticket to a show you're not promoting and take your chances like everyone else.

The business about the employees -- if not a hypothetical -- goes beyond immorality in my opinion! Collectors that drag family and friends to tip the odds in their favor? I don't know what you can do about "friends," but you can certainly limit drawings to one entry per family. It's your drawing, you can set the rules, and I think that would be a fair thing to do. And, I highly doubt that the promoter having employees enter drawings for his benefit scenario has never happened at a knife show. What some people will sink to in order to get what they want can often defy general belief. If that wasn't the case here, I don't think you should throw that out as a "hypothetical," because that REALLY sets forth an implication of major impropriety by the promoter, and if that wasn't the case, it is HIGHLY unfair and injurious to his professional reputation.

You threw it out there -- did it happen or did it not?

I have no way of knowing if it happened at the Plaza Show, I only asked how people would feel about it happening. I'm not saying it might have happened either. Is it OK for the promoters wife to enter? How about one of his sons or daughters that happen to be helping at the show? The problem with the promoter entering a drawing at his own show is obvious, it shouldn't happen and it just makes people ask questions about what kind of chance they really have.

 

[drf1]

Martin, I like drawings. too. I don't think there is a problem with the promoter entering the drawings, though. Doesn't Ed Wormser enter drawings at his shows? I think Dave Harvey does, but I'm not sure.

Ed Wormser does NOT enter drawings at his shows....

 

[martinr]

Wait a second, I thought I remembered you commenting on drawings before, Martin. Didn't you post THIS in a thread about the Chicago show?

"I'm at the show. I'm not exaggerating, sales were basically non existent. There were a few bright spots but few is the operative word. Attendance was poor, I doubt more the 25 collectors showed up. The room was just empty. That said I was picked in the Lake drawing, the SRJ drawing, and three times (two friends and myself) in the Emerson drawing. The Lake and Johnson are sold and the Emersons will be too. I wa fortunate but was lucky mainly because there weren't many people in the drawings ..."

Wasn't that an admission on your part that you brought "friends" with you to triple your own odds in the drawings? If I'm misreading what seems to be pretty clear English, please correct me. If not, what, you're mad that the promoter offset one of your own shills???? Jesus K-Rist, the nerve.

You've been sent a PM. I did not bring anyone to the show to enter drawings for me.

 

[betzner]

I get the optics point Bob. I remember when it was being discussed as to whether CKCA board members should be permitted to enter the draw for the most recent charity knife. I suggested the optics might not be good if a board member were drawn for the prize. I remember not getting a lot of support for that concern.

But optics aside, I don't think it's unfair for a promoter to drop his name in the hat for a purchase draw.

Roger

Apples and oranges. Call it an optics issue if you want. It goes beyond optics in my view. But enough has been said, so for me, the topic is a closed one.

Bob

 

[RogerP]

Apples and oranges. Call it an optics issue if you want. It goes beyond optics in my view. But enough has been said, so for me, the topic is a closed one.

Bob

Apples and apples. Or at least oranges and tangerines. If a board member had won, we would have seen this same kind of grousing.

If John Young was indeed free to run the draw as she saw fit - and it appears that he was - the we can assume he did just that. If people have a beef with how the draw was run, they should take it up with him.

Roger

 

[cnas122]

Editing this because I don't want to get in the middle of it. But I will say it chaps my ass when someone (especially a dealer) pays scabs to enter drawings on their behalf. Last year's Bose drawing for example.

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

I think the whole drawing idea is outdated nonsense. For the life of me I will never understand why a man sweats his ass off making a beautiful knife, and then gives it at below market value to some middleman who did nothing, so that same middleman can turn right around and immediately flip it and earn a quick and tidy profit off the sweat of the bladesmith, with absolutely ZERO value added.

Middlemen and dealers are dinosaurs in the Internet age. Sure, there are a few products or industries where a middleman or dealer provide added value by marketing a product, providing service, or repairs, or training/instruction for customers. Otherwise, when people want something, more and more they can now just go right to the source and cut out the zero-value-added markup of a dealer or middleman.

I wish bladesmiths would do away with this ridiculous practice and sell all of their knives directly to the end collectors, preferably auction-style, instead of turning them over to dealers who do nothing but flip them ASAP.

However, as indicated above, a maker can run any drawing they want any way they want, of course. That is freedom.

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

Apples and apples. Or at least oranges and tangerines. If a board member had won, we would have seen this same kind of grousing.

I disagree. That was not a simple drop-a-name-in-a-box deal for an opportunity to buy the knife at some below market price. That was an old-fashioned raffle, with a significant price tag of $100 a ticket, and you could buy a crapload of tix if you wanted as I recall, and the proceeds from the raffle ticket sales all went to charity. If anyone wanted to buy 20 tickets and pony up $2K to charity and still very likely not win the knife, I don't think anyone was going to complain.

Not even apples and oranges IMO. More like apples and hammers.

 

[LX_Emergency]

I see a couple of people complaining about "fairness". I thought that the U.S.A. was a kapitalist country and that everyone (or at least most everyone) likes it that way.

There's no such thing as "fair" on the free market and that's the end of it really. There's the seller....and there's the buyer. The seller can sell it for whatever price he wants in whatever way he wants, and the buyer can either comply and buy it....or not.

Everything else is just empty complaining really.

You don't see me complaining that it's not "fair" that I'll never own a Loveless because I don't earn enough money to buy one. I simply don't and that's fine. "Not fair" is not an argument that I can take to my employer.

Same with dealers, makers and buyers. "not fair" is a shill argument that get's cried out by losers all over the world.

 

[Dan Delavan]

The problem with a post like this, is that it is a “sour grapes” post.

I am in the knife business and my employees relay on me to keep the shop going so we all have a jobs. That means I buy and sell knives and hopefully there will be a show in the fall for you to attend and have a chance to get a John Young knife in the future. The Young knife will be for sale at some point. Right now I am enjoying it because I like knives.

Drawings are fair, we all have equal opportunity and nobody get hurt trying to get to his table. As for me, Pam and I entered Johns drawing like we always do, just the two of us. I did not enter our employees and friends in his drawings as I agree it would not be fair. If this was also someone else’s show I would have entered the two of us. But as Win pointed out there would have been complaining about that also as there was in Vegas. No pleasing everyone.

John ran his own drawing, I just asked him to do it at noon which he did.

Did I pay for a ticket to get in? No but I spent my evenings, weekends, and a lot of work time to put this show together for everyone. It is a lot of work. I did not exclude myself and would not expect anyone who puts on a knife show to do that, as you do not make much money and some shows make none, but you only do it because for some reason you really like knives. Believe me $30 to get in would have been much easier on me and there were plenty of other knives.

SO I get whining on entering a drawing and no comments on asking the makers to sign a pledge that they will not sell any knives until 10:10 to give everyone an equal opportunity to get to the makers table they want to buy from. That way the dealers who are in the room could not buy everything up and the attendees had the same shot at all the knives. I think most people appreciated that and I would not be surprised to see other shows do it. I even spent part of that big profit on decks of cards so each maker had a way to do a small drawing if 2 guys wanted the same knife at the beginning of the show. Unbelievable!

I think most of you who understand and tried to explain it here to the few. As Steve said I have always tried to be more than fair but we will all never agree 100% as we all have different agendas.

Thanks guys!
Dan

 

[RogerP]

I disagree. That was not a simple drop-a-name-in-a-box deal for an opportunity to buy the knife at some below market price. That was an old-fashioned raffle, with a significant price tag of $100 a ticket, and you could buy a crapload of tix if you wanted as I recall, and the proceeds from the raffle ticket sales all went to charity. If anyone wanted to buy 20 tickets and pony up $2K to charity and still very likely not win the knife, I don't think anyone was going to complain.
.

Well we'll never know. But if the promoter in question HADN'T won this particular draw, we wouldn't have a two page thread complaining about the fact that he had entered.

Middlemen and dealers are dinosaurs in the Internet age.

That is complete nonsense. But as it has nothing to do with the subject matter of the thread, I'll leave it at that.

Roger

 

[RogerP]

The problem with a post like this, is that it is a “sour grapes” post.

I am in the knife business and my employees relay on me to keep the shop going so we all have a jobs. That means I buy and sell knives and hopefully there will be a show in the fall for you to attend and have a chance to get a John Young knife in the future. The Young knife will be for sale at some point. Right now I am enjoying it because I like knives.

Drawings are fair, we all have equal opportunity and nobody get hurt trying to get to his table. As for me, Pam and I entered Johns drawing like we always do, just the two of us. I did not enter our employees and friends in his drawings as I agree it would not be fair. If this was also someone else’s show I would have entered the two of us. But as Win pointed out there would have been complaining about that also as there was in Vegas. No pleasing everyone.

John ran his own drawing, I just asked him to do it at noon which he did.

Did I pay for a ticket to get in? No but I spent my evenings, weekends, and a lot of work time to put this show together for everyone. It is a lot of work. I did not exclude myself and would not expect anyone who puts on a knife show to do that, as you do not make much money and some shows make none, but you only do it because for some reason you really like knives. Believe me $30 to get in would have been much easier on me and there were plenty of other knives.

SO I get whining on entering a drawing and no comments on asking the makers to sign a pledge that they will not sell any knives until 10:10 to give everyone an equal opportunity to get to the makers table they want to buy from. That way the dealers who are in the room could not buy everything up and the attendees had the same shot at all the knives. I think most people appreciated that and I would not be surprised to see other shows do it. I even spent part of that big profit on decks of cards so each maker had a way to do a small drawing if 2 guys wanted the same knife at the beginning of the show. Unbelievable!

I think most of you who understand and tried to explain it here to the few. As Steve said I have always tried to be more than fair but we will all never agree 100% as we all have different agendas.

Thanks guys!
Dan

Dan, I agree completely with all of the above. :thumbup:

No pleasing everyone - that is the absolute truth. As is the fact that people are quick to loudly decry a perceived negative, yet slow to praise - or simply say thank you - for a job well done.

Roger

 

[dbl-edge]

SO I get whining on entering a drawing and no comments on asking the makers to sign a pledge that they will not sell any knives until 10:10 to give everyone an equal opportunity to get to the makers table they want to buy from. That way the dealers who are in the room could not buy everything up and the attendees had the same shot at all the knives.
Dan

You mean you got makers to agree to NOT sell out to dealers up in their rooms the night before the show opens? That's got to be the biggest complaint from potential buyers. Did all the makers actually honor their pledges? That's more than any other show promoter that I know of has been able to do!

Enjoy the knife, sell it and make some money, buy more knives.

David (who probably shouldn't have declined the offer to join this show several years ago!)