knife steel/heat treat

D

davek14

Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
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I recently purchased a Rough Rider Barlow and, like everyone else, I like it. Fit, finish, etc. are all great.

Knife steel (and heat treat) is the most important thing to me though. After sharpening the Rough Rider and using it a bit the jury is still out on the steel but it certainly seems adequate and worth the money I paid.

I actually much prefer carbon steel. The Rough Rider seems very "not bad" but so far I can't get it scary sharp like good carbon steel. Like I say, the jury is still out. I would sacrifice fit and finish for better steel.

I've been looking at Kissing Crane Barlows (I'm liking Barlows now) and on the A.G. Russell website it talks of at least some Kissing Crane knives being 440A like Rough Rider.

So is the Kissing Crane 440A comparable to Rough Rider 440A? Better? Worse? I know heat treat means a lot.

How about starting a thread listing the steels in mid range knives (or all knife brands) and the perceived quality of their heat treat, etc.?

I've read that Buck uses a 420HC with a good heat treat but people seem to think Rough Rider is better steel. I'd like to hear opinions like that about many different makers. So many makers have moved to China or other countries and some have suffered more than others from this.

Posting this question in another area I got this response...

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(quote)
I don't think the steel types are known in any of these. Take what's marked on the knife as to steel type with a grain of salt. It could be more marketing than fact. And as you say, the heat treat is more important than steel type.
What's needed is a well thought out "Cut Off", i.e. a cutting contest using at least a few knives of each of these offshore brands. Numerous different cutting tests. Then repeat the whole thing except with all new in box knives, to see if first results can be duplicated.

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Good idea.

Waddya think, a "steel thread" for various makers?
 
The only case of heat treat making a noticeable difference in the performance of any of my knives has been in comparing Buck 420HC to anyone else's 420HC.

My experience has been that 440A is pretty much 440A. I don't know what rough rider uses. They for sure don't use 440A. 440A is an American alloy and it is not made in China.

My further experience is that geometry of the blade makes more difference than the alloy or its heat treat if you base your comparison on the amount of force needed to make the cut. So making comparisons based on cutting with knives from different makers doesn't work too well. They have different geometries and you end up with misleading results.

IMO, the only thing to really base a heat treat comparison upon is the blade hardness. Most of us have no way to measure that. But, I will post some of the hardnesses I have measured.

bladehardnesses.jpg
 
Odds are good that both the RR and Kissing Crane come out of the same factory, anyway.
 
knarfeng said:
My experience has been that 440A is pretty much 440A. I don't know what rough rider uses. They for sure don't use 440A. 440A is an American alloy and it is not made in China.

My further experience is that geometry of the blade makes more difference than the alloy or its heat treat if you base your comparison on the amount of force needed to make the cut. So making comparisons based on cutting with knives from different makers doesn't work too well. They have different geometries and you end up with misleading results.

IMO, the only thing to really base a heat treat comparison upon is the blade hardness. Most of us have no way to measure that. But, I will post some of the hardnesses I have measured.

bladehardnesses.jpg
Click to expand...

Good points.

First, I guess I should have said "some Chinese 440A clone steel" . I've read many people saying Rough Rider is 440A which isn't entirely accurate I guess.

I couldn't agree more on blade goemetry. I have stayed away from sabre grinds for a while. I bought the Barlow because of the flat grind. I usually use a knife for light cutting tasks and like to keep them sharp, with I guess about a 20 degree bevel.

Still, for instance on an Opinel I've read stuff like "1075 steel heat treated somewhat soft, with the convex grind it cuts like crazy but will need frequent sharpening with hard use, sharpens easily". And I've found that to be true.

I guess I'm looking for stuff like that.

That chart is pretty cool, thanks a lot for that. I work as a machinist and I've had a friend in a different department Rockwell test knives for me. He says he can't do much without a flat area, says he can't get a good reading on a flat ground knife for instance. How do you get around that. (It's not the most modern tester.)


Odds are good that both the RR and Kissing Crane come out of the same factory, anyway
Click to expand...

I used to really like Kissing Crane for a decent inexpensive knife. I don't know now.

"A 100$ knife will be lost or stolen in a day. You can throw a 20$ knife out the window of your car going 90 MPH in traffic and it will be on your dresser the next morning"
 
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Eye Brand makes some old style forged carbon steel blades that are pretty nice performers. I've never tested their hardness but I'd put their performance above other companies 420HC, 440 (?) knives, as well as the 8C knives coming out of china. A bit more difficult to sharpen than old Schrade 1095 blades I love so much, as well as Case CV which gets sharper, easier IMO.

I've heard that Eye brand carbon/alloy blades are 1075 but have no evidence. Fit and finish is not quite as good as my first choice, GEC/Northfield 1095 Unxcelled knives. These I just can't seem to get enough of.

I do like Queen D2 knives but recommend a diamond or good Norton stone for sharpening. It's pretty wear resistant stuff and they can come pretty dull. THey are worth it though.

Above are my favorite traditional knives.
 
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