Knife tied to a long stick: to spear or not to spear?

I never got around to fire-hardening sticks, but just carving a point on a hardwood branch never worked out too well for me. It doesn't take much to break off the very tip, especially when you hit something like a shoulder blade. And once that very sharp tip is gone, it's dang near useless to try to get through the hide. This is mostly in regards to smaller critters like coon & possum.

I did use a spear on several coons, made by grinding down a triangular file. Penetrated great, but it just wasn't the most practical option for my situation.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, is if you're gonna use a knife that has a guard or the handle gets suddenly thicker compared the blade, the penetration will stop right there. If you lash a 4" bladed hunting knife with a guard onto a stick, don't expect the spear to go clean through the animal; the wound will probably only be 4"-6" deep depending.
 
the possum said:
I never got around to fire-hardening sticks, but just carving a point on a hardwood branch never worked out too well for me. It doesn't take much to break off the very tip, especially when you hit something like a shoulder blade. And once that very sharp tip is gone, it's dang near useless to try to get through the hide. This is mostly in regards to smaller critters like coon & possum...
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It takes a bit of experimentation and thought to get the fire hardening and especially the shape right for the task. A blade shaped like a pumpkinseed (Masai tribal design) is much stronger than a dagger shaped blade if impact penetration is the desire. Paeleo man carried darts, not spears, and learned to make them "footed". That is with replacable points, so that one shaft carried would suffice for a pouch of six or ten points. It also allows the use of a more flexable wood for the shaft and a harder wood for the hafted point. Polishing and tempering a hardwood point is not instantly done, but in an hour's time, a full set could be made. IF you had a knife.

the possum said:
I did use a spear on several coons, made by grinding down a triangular file. Penetrated great, but it just wasn't the most practical option for my situation.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, is if you're gonna use a knife that has a guard or the handle gets suddenly thicker compared the blade, the penetration will stop right there. If you lash a 4" bladed hunting knife with a guard onto a stick, don't expect the spear to go clean through the animal; the wound will probably only be 4"-6" deep depending.
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Few North American small game animals have chests wider than six inches. The heart and lungs are midway. Even larger game have hearts not much deeper. Not that I can advocate this type of endevour for the average Joe. If you have never had a literal "bloodbath", you may find the intimate life and death struggle a bit gruesome.

It is just an option consider if you are ever in need, though it is a good one to practice and keep in your skillset. Especially in regard to using a gig for fish and frogs. Remember to add a barb of some sort, either from splitting the point itself, or adding thorns or nails. Even annular grooves help but they weaken the point.

Codger
 
Codger_64 said:
It takes a bit of experimentation and thought to get the fire hardening and especially the shape right for the task. ... Polishing and tempering a hardwood point is not instantly done, but in an hour's time, a full set could be made. IF you had a knife.
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I tried a couple different point shapes, but didn't do any thorough investigation. My initial results were too disappointing. I have played around with fire hardened sticks, and it does seem to help, but just haven't actually used 'em on critters.


Codger_64 said:
Few North American small game animals have chests wider than six inches. The heart and lungs are midway. Even larger game have hearts not much deeper.
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I just used a 4" blade to illustrate the point. The poster who started this thread talked about lashing a stockman to a stick- don't use that 1" long pen blade on deer. :)

Codger_64 said:
Not that I can advocate this type of endevour for the average Joe. If you have never had a literal "bloodbath", you may find the intimate life and death struggle a bit gruesome.
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Though I don't use the spear much anymore, I have taken a goodly number of them with just a large bowie knife. Even closer and messier. Like ya said, not for the squeamish.

Codger_64 said:
Especially in regard to using a gig for fish and frogs. Remember to add a barb of some sort, either from splitting the point itself, or adding thorns or nails. Even annular grooves help but they weaken the point.
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I remember seeing a picture of a northwest indian with a fish spear that looked pretty cool. The shaft was split, spread apart, and held apart by a small twig. The ends had barbs affixed, pointing inward. When ya hit a fish with it, it would knock out the trigger twig so the sides smacked together with the fish in between. Guess it worked for them; I'd like to hear if you or anyone else here has had some experience with this type.
 
I've never tried the trigger/gripper design. It works, evidently. I just used a straight pronged gig with barbs. Really easier than fishing with a gorge. Gorges aren't hard to make, it just takes sufficient bait and some skill in setting it in the fish's mouth/throat. Pocketknife for a spear point? I wouldn't think it would be worth the effort and risk to the knife.

Codger
 
My first thought was....

A Trail master (or similar sized blade) tied to a 18-24 inch stick would make an Improvised Japanese style hatchet and add to its versatility. A H.I AK Bowie (or the like) on a 3-4 ft. stick would be an AX? Lashed at 90 deg. to the shaft would be a Sptoon type weapon. Not sure of the tool application but would be one hell of a weapon.

A Walking stick with a large blade would work very well as a short spear, (think Agausi. spl.?) and with a 550 cord line (think bow fishing) would not be able to run away with the critter. Set in a socket so the shaft drops free could be a plus?

I understand the concerns about throwing away or damaging your only knife. Seems there are several possible candids for this job. The Airborne Ranger combat knife comes with a challenge to try and out use it, Bussie seems to have a similar guarantee. Don't know if a Mora would be a good choice though.

I would think that blade shape could be a factor if this is part of your plan. A Leaf shape like the Smachet comes to mind.

Aren't most Native American lances just a blade lashed to a stick? Worked well for them?

I haven't tried any of this just thinking. I tried tying a Air force Survival knife to a stick as a kid and lost interest rather quick when it did not work. But I did not know about 550 cord then. Think I had some string?
 
DOC-CANADA said:
I've heard here and other forums about fire hardenening a wooden spear. What I would like to know is, has anybody, advocating the practice, ever done it? I don't think penetration would be as easy as people think. Just my 2 cents.

Doc
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I have tried it on gar, you are correct, at least in my case.

I was on a float in July,and I noticed on the outside bend of the river across from camp there were a lot of gar coming to the top of the water and suspending there. I carved a point out of a 1/2-3/4" limb, fire hardend it then lashed it on a larger stick. I was in the front of the canoe and my buddy paddled over to the bend, there was a big gar 5-6' long broadside so I threw the spear and it bounce off. I retrieved the spear and the tip bent over. It would most likely work on a thinner scaled, less prehistoric fish, but not on gar.
 
The thing at the left of my picture is a solar food dryer....just a box covered with a sheet of plastic film. Apple rings are threaded on to some stainless steel rods that sit across the box. I guess you could dry jerky in it, but I would only attempt that during warm dry weather to ensure that it dried quickly.

When I was a teenager I found a drawing of an Eskimo seal harpoon. This had a sharpened head to which a cord was attached. Opposite the sharp end was a hole into which a shaft fitted. The idea was that you would thrust your harpoon into the animal and the head would detach and turn sideways. Then the animal was tethered to you, and it didn't have the shaft to thrash and lever against....which may cause an ordinary spear to tear out of the animal. I made some of these heads and used them to spear big stingrays. They worked exceptionally well. It was exciting for a lad to spear stingrays, but in retrospect it was wasteful and senseless. But my point is that if the head of a spear can detach in the fish, then it cant lever against the spear to escape. Of course you need to have a strong cord attached to the head.

I think it is a good idea, when choosing a knife, to consider the shape of the handle as to its suitability for lashing to a pole. Some handles are much better suited than others. If a handle has a hole going right through it, that is a big advantage... and it should still allow you to tie on a knife that has an otherwise "difficult" handle.

Finding a quick and reliable method of lashing the knife to a stick is a good thing to practice before you head outside. It is the sort of thing I'd be fiddling with in front of the TV while the Missus was knitting.
 
Maybe a spear could be useful if hiking/trapping in grizzly bear territory(for self defence, as a thrusting weapon), otherwise it's maybe not too useful.

But never with the only/primary knife though.
 
I'll side with the folks here who say that if you only have one knife on you to avoid using that on the end of a spear.

The knife is too important a tool to risk damaging or losing in a survival situation.
 
One thing I have noticed in most of these posts is that the majority of people who are advocating using the knife as aspear head are talking about hunting situations. If your knife breaks while you are hunting it is a loss, but most of us have plenty more at home. I a suvival situation if you only have one knife then the risk is to great.

One thing no one mentioned were the Chris Reeve one piece hollow handle knives. Woundn't these work pretty good with the stick slid into the hollow portion. Seems to me if you were going to do it, this would be the strongest way to do it.

Thanks,

Chad
 
In the particular situation I mentioned above, the knife used was a Schrade Walden 165OT Woodsman. The 4 5/8" sabre ground bladestock is nearly 3/16" thick, and remains nearly full thickness from the butt of the exposed full tang to the unsharpened false edge halfway down the spine to where the sabre grind rises to the clip point. In well over thirty years of use I have never broken it. In a survival situation I would definately repeat the use of the lashed knife as a thrusting instrument if needed.

Would I throw it at a fleeing animal? No. Not lashed to a pole or unlashed. But in a survival situation, loosing it would not be the end of my world. As I have said before, I have been in just such a situation without a knife, or even clothes on my back. I made it just fine and could do it time and again. A knife is a very important tool, but the primary tool is the brain and the creativity within, and the will to survive.

While it is comforting to think you would have a knife in a survival situation, plenty of folk have met their end knife in hand. And plenty of folks have survived without their favorite RamboIII survival knife.

Codger
 
What fraternity were you pledging?

It was very popular at the time( 2.59 million served, 2/3 of the men were volunteers.). Folks were dying to get in. Initiation wasn't so bad, but it didn't prepare us at all for the survival aspect. A lot didn't (58,169 were killed and 304,000 wounded). Five of the men killed were only 16 years old.



You know, the "frat" with the big black memorial to 58,169 men and women in D.C.

"No event in American history is more misunderstood than the Vietnam War. It was misreported then, and it is misremembered now. Rarely have so many people been so wrong about so much. Never have the consequences of their misunderstanding been so tragic." R.M.Nixon

Codger
 
Codger,

I apologize if my post sounded facetious -- if anyone on this forum could survive the situation you described, it's you. My father served in Vietnam, too.

Thanks for your service, and for all the good advice you import to us. :thumbup:
 
I have/had an important "leg up" on a lot of men and boys then and now. I grew up on a farm in the Missisippi River Delta and roamed the fields and woods from the time I was eight. If I didn't have a shotgun, a .22 rifle, I almost always had a knife or a broken bottle made into one. On the farm, we made things. We fixed things. We grew things and ate them, and hunted and fished and ate that too. I was a Cub Scout, then Boy Scout and Eagle. I joined the Civil Air Patrol in my junior year of high school and served SAR on the local Statigic Air Command Base (yes the bombers on the flight line were hot and heavy). I learned to fly Cessnas and C-130's. I learned a lot before basic. And it was a good thing I did. Back last century training was not nearly what it is now. Much (if not most) of what we were taught applied to an earlier war. I would be lost in the Middle East ruckus. My knowledge wouldn't apply there. Or in the subarctic. But the very basics of being able to survive still apply all over. Depend upon yourself, not "things". Keep learning. I am.

Codger:thumbup:
 
a variety of spear points , real , throwing spear points

Picture261.jpg
 
Myal said:
a variety of spear points , real , throwing spear points

Picture261.jpg
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That picture is great. It's worth a lot more than a thousand words. I'm adding a couple of nails to my PSK, now that I've seen a few incorporated into spears by someone who obviously knows what he's doing. Am I correct in seeing some electrical tape on a couple of those spears, or is that blood? Thanks.
 
ocher is used for decorating them , grass tree resin and roo sinew is used to bind the points on .

the old man who made these was very traditional , the only consent he gave to modern ways was to make "shovel" spears , the two metal bladed spears at the bottom of the pic

the old soft steel shovels that were sent out with the settlers were cut and shaped by stone tool ( soft british steel ) and reused as spear points .

the original neo tribal metal smiths , were actually tribal :)
 
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