Knife VS Knife

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Jan 31, 2001
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Is there anything around on this? I tried a search and had 80 pages of results. I am always seeing stuff about knife vs. unarmed and am wondering how best to use a knife against someone with a knife.
 
This is completely different than knife vs. empty hand and very few people understand this. Most see someone train against empty and think that that is there respective knife fighting technique. Ahhhh, immature strategy is the cause of grief.
I do not know all of the publications where this information maybe found, but I am sure the rest of the readers will be forthcoming with this info. shortly.
 
Well the best knife fighters are people who dress up in medieval ger and show of at knife shows I don’t remember the proper name for that stuff, hay English is my second language. Any way some of them also train with knives. :p
 
mschwoeb, I'm a little confused here. Do you mean knife vs knife as a thread topic? Or books and videos on the subject?
 
I would have to say that while books and stuff would be nice, I am more interested in this as a thread so I can pick your minds on this subject. wondering what special actions, moves and other bits would be majorly different than knife vs unarmed.
 
I am sorry I definitely misunderstood your request.
First of all I believe the proper fighting stance to be your normal stance with a little emphasis on the knife side (which hand proceeds the other).
When encountering one without a known weapon I believe in protecting the knife so I will lead with the blocking or off knife side.
The next issue is offensive or defensive that is the question do you attack or counterpunch.
Distance and timing are the key elements here; this is because they are extremely hard to judge.
When counter-attacking the risk is your getting struck before you can counter so you must be very good and know what you are doing. The other issue here is that sometimes one might consider providing a target area hoping that the culprit will go for it, thus forcing the attack to an area you are prepared for?
When one goes on the aggressive, most techniques should involve initiating on the knife hand of your opponent then following through.
If other target areas are presented then of course take them just be very aware that your culprit might be setting you up. So if it looks too easy be careful.
The rest of what you are asking is quite involved, so use this information as a foundation and research from here.
 
Are you looking more for moves in a theatrical sense or actual street combat? If it is street combat keep this in mind. When some one pulls a knife they will be in your face slashing and drilling you in the time that it took to read this sentence. Your reaction time in drawing your knife to defend your LIFE will be at best twice that....better to learn unarmed against knife. Knife fighting is not like the scenes from 'West side story,' it is fast, brutal and 99% of the time...fatal. Think about this before getting into to one. IF you are the one fortunate enough to walk away make sure the bleeding bad guy get medical attention by making an annonymous call to 911. Taking away the only thing a man truly has is a very heavy burden.

Hope this helps.
A man with no cuts on his arms and hands is either a begginer or a pro
 
I don't know much about knife fighting. I've been shooting handguns all my life, though. I think the best defense is to have a compact handgun in your pocket with your hand already on the gun. I like the mini Glocks and the J-frame S&Ws. I would hate to encounter a knife wielding assailant without the chance to pull a handgun on him.
 
...won't beat a knife in the hand of the other guy. I would get some training in the knife, Ad, or you will lose your gun and life in a close enviroment, where the knife is, and has been, the king for hundereds of years. I carry a gun every day, but in the point blank range, a knife will beat it, so that's what I go for over a gun. Over reliance on guns is the number one problem with law enforcement. You can't take a bullet back, but you can pull a cut, much like a punch. Even knife on knife encounters can de escalate without severe damage. But once guns are out, you better have a lawyer, bail bondsman, or know about some good hiding places and better friends!
 
Robert H: A knife in the pocket probably wouldn't beat a knife in the hand, either. I think it depends on who gets the drop on who.

I know a Korean war vet who was attacked in his office by a much larger, younger, butcher-knife wielding assailant who was trying to kill him. My friend pulled out his .25 auto and shot the assailant 3 times point blank in the chest, which didn't stop the fight immediately. He continued to grapple with the assailant for a while until the assailant dropped dead. My friend got cut in the process, but he survived. Had he been carrying a .40 or .45 or .357 it is likely that the fight would have ended much sooner. When the cops showed up, they congratulated my friend and gave him a box of bullets for a job well done.

As far as there being more stringent sanctions against you for using a gun (as opposed to a knife) for self defense, I am unaware of that being the case out here in California. If you use them in a deadly fashion, both will be treated equally. I am a lawyer here in California and, being a hardcore handgunnere, am very interested in these laws. If you pull a handgun (or knife, for that matter) you must only do so if you are in fear of death or serious bodily injury. Obviously, a guy coming at you with a knife would give you the green light to pull a knife or gun. The only downfall in using the gun is that you will be charged with carrying a concealed weapon, which is routinely treated as a misdemeanor offense your first time out. However, the laws out here pertaining to knives are very restrictive. Don't quote me on this, but I believe that the legal limit for carrying a concealed knife is something less than a 4" blade. In other words, it's not the type of knife I would stake my life on if I had a guy with a butcher knife who outweighs me by 40 pounds coming at me. Also, if you violate the blade size limitation, you will also be charged with carrying a concealed weapon.

In short, it is still my belief that I would rather have a small pocket pistol over just about anything else. I've read the stories and talked to the Kali guys about a knife-user traversing a 20 foot distance in 3 short leaps (or something like that). But you can't tell me that he can do that faster than I can pull my handgun when my hand is already on my gun. And it's just as fast for me to pull my gun than it is for me to pull a knife, when my hand is already attached to either weapon. I'd rather put in slug in guy. Why would I want to engage in a knife duel when I can potentially stop the fight with one shot?
 
The problem is that walking around with a hand on your gun all the time is not only impossible, but impractical.

Also, when an random or sudden encounter starts, different levels of force can be used to de-escalate, or get away. I consider a gun an absolute last resort force option, because even the diminutive .25 can take life rather quickly because once the trigger is pulled, there is no going back. That's not to say that using it as a threat display is out of the question.

A knife can be used to varying degrees of force, often achieving a bargain or locking position to end an encounter. In skilled hands, it will facilitate a death, or control the limbs of your attacker from doing anything, including draw things out of pockets. That is why it is important to learn the techniques of close combat with the empty hand, knife, and gun. With a knife, the level of force can go from none to full power, with all levels in between. With a gun you either shoot or you don't. And while you're deciding that, you'll get cut.

I carry a gun every day. But my knife is right there beside it. Mechanical devices can and will fail, and distance makes a big difference. At touch range, the knife is king
 
Everyone brings up really good points here.

First let me say that I really appreciate the opportunity to listen and learn from CJ. In the circles that I travel I rarely get the chance to converse with someone with as much experiance as Mr. Caracci. Paticularly his lessons on knife combatives as I am a novice student in this area.

As far as the gun vs knife debate, sure whoever has the drop on the other guy is going to strike first. I have a J frame S&W 38 with a hammer shrowd that I can shoot through my pocket with out even drawing. So yeah, if my hand is on the gun within the point blank range, I can get off a shot(s) before the guy with a knife is going to strike. But if my hand is not on the gun, I would probably do an unarmed counter or move before drawing something else.

The debate about which is faster has more to do with a person's over reliance with their weapon as their first course of action in dealing with an edged attacker with in the 20' range. It has to do with reaction time in recognizing a threat and the actions that follow. It's not about gun versus knife. Given similar parameters, the same thing would happen if you did knife vs knife. The person with the drop will win unless you did some sort of evasive or counter manuver first.

Now back to the original topic, knife vs knife - assuming both people have their weapons drawn a lot of it depends on the situation. Is his knife or reach significantly longer then yours? Are you squared-off facing each other or is he to your side or behind you? Is he holding the knife in his forward hand or rear hand? What grip does he have on his knife? Are you in a car and he is outside? Are you aginst a wall? (you get the idea)...

There are so many varibles to knife fighting. Most experianced knifers will not let you see that they have a blade until it's too late. I think the situation where you know that someone is comming at you from 20 feet away with a blade is unrealistic. Why would someone telegraph what they had that far away?

That said, from what I am learing about "knife fighting" is that it is really about "fighting with a knife" I know that this statment is confusing but there are specific techniques as CJ mentions. However there are also a host of other fighting elements involved that I think are often overlooked. Knife fighting is not just 2 people with a knife slashing and stabing. While on the surface it may appear that way, but to the trained fighter, it includes, stance, footwork, attack angles, framing, blocking, trapping, grappleing, locking, kicks, elbows, ect..

While I enjoy threads on this topic I often hesitate to reply because the situations are not very specific. Maybe that's the nature of text based discussions. To the original poster, get some good knife training from the best instructor you can find. I did and it makes all the difference in understinding.

Sorry for the long post, just my $.02

S.
 
Well, I've always wanted to learn how to use a knife, so... I just went down the street (10 minutes from my house) and signed up to learn kali/silat from Pak Viktor de Thours. I'm pretty stoked on learning from this man. I've seen his school for some time and have wanted to go in and see a class. What I saw was pretty awesome.
 
Good for you!

Any good school like that would be a joy to attend. I am jealous of that, yet very happy for you. I think you will find it rewarding and addictive. Soon you will be carrying knives and guns I'll bet. I must train with friends and attend seminars due to my location, but I do it as often as possible.

Enjoy the training!
 
Robert H: Thanks for the best wishes. How long have you trained in bladed weapons? What system(s) have you trained in? And how do you like to carry knife and gun? My martial arts training only goes as far as wrestling and Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I have never trained in a weapon oriented system before. I realize how potentially fatal it can be taking a stranger to ground on the street and looking to finish him the wrestling way. I think Pentjak Silat Serak and/or Kali may be the perfect stand up system for the street. Take care.
 
I have received training from a varity of military assignments both with L.I.N.E. in the USMC and combatives in the Army. I found them to be somewhat basic, so I sought instruction with James Keating at the Riddle of Steel, and was very pleased with the depth and professionalism of the instruction. I have also done some work with the classic Applegate system, some fencing, tomahawk, knife and tomahawk, and a little bit of the stick.

I have shot pistol and precision rifle for all of my military career, and competed in civilian matches and events as well. I am a firm believer in the rifle from my Marine Corps time, and think that most people underestimate what one good marksman can accomplish with the M16A2, or any properly sighted rifle for that matter. I normally carry two or three knives on me at all times, including tomahawks, in any manner of carry depending on blade length. (It doesn't hurt that if I want to carry something specifically I can simply manufacture a sheath for it) I carry my pistols normally in the "mexican" or crossdraw fashion without a holster. Ammo and gun/knives depends on the situation and dress, but I am always sure to have a rifle or shotgun handy if possible

But all that said, I still consider myself a beginner when it comes to combative skills. There is always more to learn, and more to practise, but with everything, I think mindset is key. If I can avoid a violent situation by retreat or deception, I will. With the stigma against any aggressive posture in this country, I consider violence an absolute last resort, but if needed, it must be overwhelming, brutal, and final, no matter what the weapon used.

Others my disagree or object, but I have seen the damage to humans from all degree of force, and the bottom line is blood must be spilled in great volumes to ensure a kill. Humans are incredibly resilient, yet fragile as well. I have heard and seen examples of people absorbing ballistic damage that is amazing to behold. But I have yet to see someone live with more than one major blood bearing organ destroyed with a blade, or main artery severed for any length of time. That is why the blade is the tool for close quarters in the hand of a determined or skilled person. In my opinion, the tomahawk is the most efficient and ergonomic weapon for that task, but to each his own. Warfare and combat is the natural state of man. We simply get interrupted by peace every once in a while.
 
Well in a knife Vs knife situation I would probably look fore a stick if I can't find one ill use my aggression as much as I can.:mad: :mad: :mad:

By the way when you train in knife fighting remember that in most schools you are fighting a person trained in the simular type of fighting. I trained in an Applegate system recently I got in to an argument with a man about knife fighting he considered a reverse grip ideal as that was the way in which he was trained I preferred my classic Applegate stance and grip. So we got to training knives and went at itch over when we ran out of energy he got enough cuts to kill me if his knife was reel but I stabbed him enough to kill him.

So train smartly.
;)
 
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