Knife vs. Spear Scenario

CitizenQ

CitizenQ

Joined
May 5, 2006
Messages
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For all it's flaws, please accept this scenario for your consideration and comment...

You have become stranded in the wilds. It is summer. There is no chance of rescue and you're going to have to walk out. You estimate that your journey will take you two (2) weeks. The area is known to be the very active domicile of the mountain lion. The only tool you have with you is a knife. The knife has a 7-inch blade. You will make shelter and camp at night. You will forage, hunt, and travel by day.

I would use the knife to prepare my camp in the evenings, but one of the very first things I'd do is fashion a strong 8-foot pole and lash the knife to it with the 12-feet of paracord I happened to be carrying ;) for use during the day. It seems to me that a spear is a much more useful as a weapon vs. a knife.

But what do you think?
 
While the spear is a more effective weapon for creating distance (usually) vs a human threat, and would likely be safer at 6 feet than a knife vs a mountain lion, one has to deal with the fact that often, the first one sees of a mountian lion (ambush predator) is during the attack. It would do one well to take to mind the possibility that it would be too late and too fast to take advantage of the spear, and you may not be able to get the blade between you and your attacker.
Perhaps a shorter pole? Or, the way I would do it, is to use the knife to fashion a very sharp improvised spear, and then you would have both.
 
Chances are that you will never even see a mountain lion (unless at a distance). there are lots of them around here and sightings even in Colorado Springs (a friend went to raid the ice box in the middle of the night and noticed something on the deck, it was a mountain lion eating the cat's food).
Basically the only people that I remember getting attacked locally were runners or mountain bikers who managed to trigger the lions chase response.
As always in the back country keep your eyes open and do not run if you see one, running will lable you as dinner.
I have never tried a spear in the back country, I would go with the knife just because of its familiarity and versatility. With a knife you can make an atlatl and spear (with a fire hardened point), snares, as well as throwing sticks, digging sticks and a bolo. The knife is too handy a tool to consider it a primary weapon or grocery getter.

Enjoy!
 
Ah yes...the "closer than 8 feet" question has been bothering me since I posted this topic, and you are right. Much better to use the knife to make a spear and have the knife ready for the close struggle. :thumbup:
 
CitizenQ said:
Much better to use the knife to make a spear and have the knife ready for the close struggle. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

The best answer. Mountain lion threat aside, IMO it is better to have two weapons than one if and when they're ever needed.
 
Like the others have been saying, use the knife to sharpen up a spear, and keep the knife on your belt for quick access and not in your pack where it may become separated from you.

Keep your eyes open and make noise as you walk through the bush so as not to startle big cats/bears and such, but by letting them know you are in the area.
 
There were a number of mentions of tiger attacks in the far east a decade or 2 ago. Tigers attack from the rear much like mountain lions, and there was some foundation making faces (masks) to be worn on the back of the head to discourage tiger attacks. These were apparently somewhat successful.

Mountain lions go for the nect a lot. Rigging up some kind of spiked neck/head/shoulder "punkization" might be beneficial. Same general idea as spiked dog collars. Pictures of massively spiked shoulder pads from a couple of fantasy games come to mind. Wonder if those were supposed to be for people or monster threats?

As far as the knife/spear question, the movie The Edge comes to mind, with all the wood spears they made with the one little folder to take on the bear. A spear or dedicated spear point is a tool. A knife is a tool to make other tools with. Of course the Bushman comes to mind too.
 
Happy Joe said:
With a knife you can make an atlatl and spear (with a fire hardened point)
Enjoy!
Click to expand...

I live straight west, a couple miles, of Castle Rock CO and I've seen one mountain lion here. There have been a lot of tracks on my property, but I havent seen a mountain lion on my property. I have, however, seen a couple bears here. The knife and the spear with a fire hardened point is the best idea by far.

There was a guy hiking up Devils Head a few years back who was attacked by a mountain lion. He had a Victrinox Swiss Army knife and that was it. He stabbed it in the stomach and dug his thumb into its eye and the mountain lion actually ran off.
 
Do I get to have a bottle of bug dope? if not either one would be just fine to impale myself on...:D (Alaskan skeeters= no fun, especially up north)

Other than that, I'm with the crowd for fire hardened spear tip, and a knife at the side. Although I wonder if an average person couldn't benefit from knapping a spear tip from flint? I've heard it's ten times harder than it looks....

Pardon me for my imagination running away into mosquito and bear country....
 
This one isn't theory for me. The locals stopped grazing cattle on the ridge where I camp because of losses to cougars. I don't fear an attack, I'd love to see one. So far only tracks though.

Fire hardened spear is the way to go. Mac
3dayspearkl4.jpg
 
I agree with Pict, for many reasons.

-You can make a wooden spear point very thin and pointy for penetration.
-You can harden it so it won't be apt to break off.
-I would want my knife as "weapon of last choice" even if the Spear failed.
(may not be best case, but, it's good to have a back-up plan).
-I wouldn't want to lose the knife off of the spear. Even the best lashing job may not be as rigid as you would think.


In a Mountain Lion's version of the world, almost everything is a deer (prey).
If they see something that isn't prey , they still tend to want to think it is prey.

Don't act like prey. Yell a lot. make lots of noise. Bang sticks against trees.
Do anything that is out-of-line with what prey animals do, which is normally be quiet, docile and graze. Be a wild man. Blow your whistle a lot.
Strap a big ol pine bough to your back to look a lot larger.
Carry fire.

Fire: Again, oh the importance of fire! At night, it is probably, by far, the one thing that can keep critters wondering if they shouldn't go somewhere else. Humans have a fondness for fire (Fire Good, ugh).
Critters have almost the reverse reaction (Fire? I better get away).
I would consider 2 fires, if enough resources are available.


Camp Site Selection: Just like setting up a military position.
Don't be accessible and low. Don't camp under the big ledge rock where the Mountain Lion is apt to crouch :)

Movement: Same as military type of thought, look for possible ambush sites.
they aren't gonig to be sitting on a trail, they are most likely going to be on the high side, on a rock, or come out of some thick brush and from a crouched position. Look for the crouching cat.

Something I read recently, if you have seen a solitary predator (Lion) , it is most likely to "pounce" at you as soon as the two of you make eye contact. It goes back to the prey issue, they would like to sneak up, but, when the deer sees them, they are apt to take that opportunity to gain the upperhand.
Whatever you do, when you see a Mountain Lion, don't runaway!
Instinct kicks in, you ARE 100% prey at that point.

Bottom Line is this. it's gonig to be a very rare incident. more people die from bee stings and lightning strikes.

If you are attacked while unwary, good luck, hope you can reach your knife or pistol before your neck is snapped.
If you have even 5 seconds of notice, count yourself as lucky.

In the big scheme of things, Mountain lions are about the last thing on the list to worry about.

As Pict sez, he has been looking for them and only found tracks.
Statistics say you would be lucky ot ever see one, much less have an encounter with one.
 
One more vote for the fire-hardened spear and keeping the knife handy as a knife.

Along this same line of thought...

Most of the cougar attacks are from behind. They attack prey from behind and go for the neck.:eek:

Might it be advisable, in a situation where there is concern about a cougar attack, to wear something, even if it's just a bird's nest of grass, cattail leaves, etc., around the shoulders and neck? It obscures the location of the head/neck and if you are attacked, the cougar may get ahold of that material and not you!

I think the best prevention, though, would be to do as SkunkWerX says, and just make a lot of noise.

SkunkWerX said:
Don't act like prey. Yell a lot. make lots of noise. Bang sticks against trees.
Do anything that is out-of-line with what prey animals do, which is normally be quiet, docile and graze. Be a wild man. Blow your whistle a lot.
Click to expand...

Also, avoid being active near dusk or dawn, if possible. Cougars do most of their hunting around these two times.
 
The tiger attack avoidance mask is detailed here:http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/maneating11.html

The numbers also seem to indicate that you are 10 times less likely on any one outing to suffer death from a cougar attack as you are to succumb to a black widow.

So, anyone up for a group buy of specially commisioned knit hats with a smiley face on the back?
 
I'd like to see a cougar in the wild. Theyre pretty elusive & the chance of a human being attacked by one are extremely unlikely, especially for an adult, rather than a child. - - - I do agree that any weapon that allows you to employ it from a great distance from your vital areas makes sense - - so a spear would be better than a knife. But, think I'll stick to carrying my lightweight 44 Mag revolver. - - -
 
There have been at least a few cases where people fought off a mountain lion with a knife after they were attacked - and lived. If I recall correctly a couple were actually pocket knives.

I wonder if a 7" or longer blade may be a disadvantage in that close quarters? It may be awkward to get a good, straight strike and it could get knocked out of your hand easier than a shorter blade (maybe 4-5")???
 
If you are in a cougar area, your best bet is a tomahawk. It sounds crazy, but it works. Make it about the length between your elbow and fingertip, and find a rock with fine grain, no grain if possible (that kind is hardest), and that should be as long, wide, and thick as your hand. Put a fire hardened spear tip on the bottom and you'r ready for war. One thing to remember: NEVER GET THAT CLOSE TO A BEAR. EVER. Keep one of those on the business end of a spear. Any closer, and you might lose a chink out of your leg. Trust me. I know from experience.
 
I used to carry a revolver down here for defense in the bush. That was back when it wasn't a big deal legally. Back then they would let you off with a warning for a first offense. Now its two years in jail and a felony. A j-frame .38 with 158 grain +P JHP is weak medicine for a cougar, but that is the best we can get here. Back in the States I normally carry either a Glock 9mm (not thinking animals), S&W 2.5 inch Model 19-5 .357 magnum, or a 1911 A1 .45.

Your chances of meeting a charging cougar are far less than meeting up with a hostile human. People are the most dangerous animal you can meet in the wilderness. Mac
 
SkunkWerX said:
Fire Good, ugh.
Click to expand...
:D

LikeHike said:
I wonder if a 7" or longer blade may be a disadvantage in that close quarters? It may be awkward to get a good, straight strike and it could get knocked out of your hand easier than a shorter blade (maybe 4-5")???
Click to expand...

Good point...hadn't considered that thanks.

Tell me about fire hardening a spear point...
  • Why does fire harden wood?
  • What method should one employ for optimal fire hardening?
  • What is the best wood to start with?
Thanks...everyone. :)
 
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