knifemaker suicides

yitz

yitz

Joined
Mar 5, 2000
Messages
435
Still bummed out by the news in the recent thread about Yvon Vachon. Suicide is always a terrible thing, but perhaps even more so with someone so young and talented. I believe in the "spirit of the knife." That's why I enjoy owning blades by people like Moran and Hartsfield. I still love the knives I own by Vachon, Cooper, and Draper, but whenever I handle them, there's always that little bit of sadness that lingers.....:( :confused:
 
As opposed to folks who work around other people, knife making can be a very lonely pastime. There are no models to talk to while we draw, no one to sing our songs, very few hear our art as we see it so discussion can be very limited. It is up to the knife maker to carry the conversation with his ideas. What we read, the authors we choose to share thoughts with are very important to keeping our thoughts and maybe even our selves alive. Pets in the shop, hobies to challenge and environment can all be essential. --- Just some thoughts on the subject.
 
Suicide is a truly horrendous thing.

Guys, your words, and the thoughts behind them, are kind and well intentioned. It is obvious that you are caring and considerate.

Sometime ago, I took a vow to try to debunk this stuff when ever I see it. I must keep my word.

People do not <i>kill themselves</i> because they are lonely. Nor do they do it because they are isolated, starving for attention, spiteful, inconsiderate, or self-absorbed, etc. We've all heard all the supposed attributions.

People do not, merely, "commit suicide." They <i>kill themselves</i>! This is an important distinction. "Commiting suicide," is a concept. Killing oneself is a direct action. It is self-murder.

They do it, because they are overwhelmed by thoughts of regret, shame, fear, dread and despair, and for all the conceivable combinations of the foregoing. It is most saddening, because they think this way, often, in the midst of people who love them, admire them and care about them.

Does it sound unreasonable? It should. Self-murder is antithetical to reason.

People go to the <i>abominable extreme</i> of murdering themselves - most often - because of untreated, or ineffectively treated <b>clinical depression</b>. Clinical depression is a horrifying illness, which utterly consumes a person's being. It was described, centuries ago, as "a sickness like death itself."

Clinical depression is a <i>medical illness</i>, causing chemical imbalances in the organs of the body, principally in the brain. It is empirically observable, and very, very often treatable.

For <i>purely brutal political and economic reasons,</i> it is MIS-classified as a 'mental illness.' For this reason, and a widespread ignorance of the prospects for long-term recovery, most victims do not seek treatment.

Other misconceptions abound. Clinical depression is not sadness, nor loneliness. It is <i>profound misery.</i> Clinical depression is no more caused by its victims, than is, say, mennengitis caused by its victims. It strikes the rich and the poor, the intelligent and the dim-witted evenly. It strikes infants,children, teenagers, adults, middle-lifers and the elderly alike. Women do not get it more often than men, no matter what Cosmopolitan or the AMA has to say, and it isn't "what women get." The well-publicized post-partum depression, is very similar but not the same. (This is important because, this last, is an actual excuse given by many men for not seeking treatment!)

Depression kills. It causes people to murder themselves. It ruins peoples lives, and causes horrifying shockwaves to everyone around them.

If someone you know talks about suicide, talk to them about it. Make them go for help, as much as you can make someone do anything. If you feel miserable, all of the time, get help immediately. There are many places you can call to get started, anonymously.

I'd write more, but this is enough.

I didn't know the man mentioned in the post. I may know some of what he went through. I'm not eulogizing him.

You can honor his memory - if you like - by helping someone else. You'll have to go out of your way to do it, but wouldn't you have done that for <i>him</i>, if you knew this would ultimately happen?

I assure you that he looked around for help at the last moment and found no sign of it.

It will happen again. Don't let it happen to you, or near you.
 
Boy, that wasn't meant to read so angrily, but this is serious business and I'll let it stand.

Much of what you say is true.

You can save a life by being a solid friend, or merely by being interested.

I once knew a knifemaker, pretty well, though he might say we were merely acquainted. I used to talk to him all the time about many potential projects. He was always pleasant, and always gave freely of his time.

During the time we'd talk, he'd encourage me to to try new things and stimulated much that had been dormant in me. I was re-awakened to a passion I still follow. To chase after my passion, I had to go and do all the things necessary to be healthy enough to pursue it.

Now I chase it like a madman. A happy madman!

The guy doesn't know what he did for me. He just spent time with me. It may be you're doing the same for someone now. Maybe you'll have the chance to, someday.

You just never know, and tomorrow is promised to no one.

Whatever you do, do it with a smile. :)
 
I sat here in debate after reading these posts and thought about expressing my opinion on suicide. Mainly cause I'd probably be flamed for sounding like some insensitive jerk, but hey, I've been called worse.
I feel that a person who takes there own life is selfish and of weak mind. Selfish for thinking only of themselves and not of the people who care about them for what it would put them through. Ex. in no way could I even comprehend the thought of robbing my son of a life with his father.
Of weak mind; If you can't tell yourself, no matter how bad your life may seem there's somebody out there whos' got it worse. Like the saying goes "and I thought I had it bad". Ya know the sun will rise again tomorrow, it will be a new and different day so go on, work through your problems and above all remain positive.
Nothing, and I mean nothing, could ever be that bad in life that you would have to take your own.
I feel no remorse for an individual who takes there own life for it is cowardly and sinful.
I do feel for the loved ones left to deal with it.
 
Patrick. I used to think exactly like you until someone very close to me committed suicide. I watched a strong caring man who loved life turn into somebody I didnt recognize over the course of a few weeks. All of his friends and family pleading for him to want to live did not help. Psychiatric treatment did not help. There was no evil hidden secrets that made him not want to live. He was sick. While am sure there are people who are as you say are so selfish and weak minded that they commit suicide, I feel the vast majority are people who are afflicted with a mental disease.
 
Suicide is not a sign of weakness, it's a sickness.
Samwereb is exactly right. Except it goes even further. When a person is mentally ill or clinically depressed, their problems are magnified many times in their mind. They don't see it as you and I do, their illness has their problems looking so much bigger than they really are that they genuinely feel there is no hope.
It took me a long time to accept this. Someone VERY close to me committed suicide in 1987. At the time I thought it was the most selfish act a person could do. I finally came to accept that in their sick state of mind, there was no alternative. I hated this person for a long time for doing it, it was not easy to admit they were ill.
Sure, maybe in an occasional case it's like nijam says, but for the most part it is caused by an illness of the mind.
Pay attention to those you love, their life may depend on it.

Dave
 
I believe Yitz is a Psychologist, maybe he can shed some light on this. I was told by by a professor in my behavioral science and law class that the majority of people are not "clinically depressed" when they commit suicide (I know that sounds crazy). I could be completely wrong
 
Samhell I could agree with you the more I think about it. I suppose there are some really sick people out there. The worst, it could be right under your nose and not even know it.
Maybe the reason I'm so strongly aginst suicide is I've never been around it. It's never happened to any one close to me. If it did my views could likely change.......maybe.
 
I've thought long and hard about climbing into this thread. Much of what's been written here is absolutely true. That suicide is cowardly isn't. I know that for a fact. Depression is a clinical illness resulting from a biochemical imbalance in brain chemistry. It's exactly the same as diabetes, only it affects a different set of chemical receptors. It is exascerbated by certain life experiences, including loneliness, financial stress, divorce, etc., etc.

As Ed says well, knifemaking is a very lonely occupation. In a sense that is some of its appeal, and its curse. When you're grinding or hammering steel you are completely absorbed in the process, and the espcape that affords is one of its attractions. At the same time, it is like any creative process subject to judgemental criticism, mostly self-criticism. Sometimes, it's the less than sensitive remarks or lack thereof that are made on these forums, or at a show, or elsewhere. Sometimes, it's just the lack of understanding by others as to why you don't have a *real* job. And sometimes it's because all you can see in every blade you make, no matter how hard you try, are those many little things that keep the perfection you seek an ever elusive goal. How many little mistakes do you have to see in your creations, flaws in your abilities, before you finally say, "I'm really not worth a $hit", especially after many hard years of trying to do better?

If you work alone as most knifemakers do, there is absolutely nobody you can talk to in those bleakest moments who can say to you, "hey, that's really good." There is only yourself who answers your unasked questions, and sometimes we are very harsh critics of what we create.

I suspect the escape afforded by the process is one of the things that attracts many of us to this occupation, especially those of us who do this as our livlihood, and it is that very isolation that also feeds on our psyches, causing the tragedies that are the topic of this thread. Some of us are blessed with wonderfully supportive wives who see us through down moments. Some are alone, or may have a wife who thinks it is a waste of time and not supportive of the family needs.

In the deepest, darkest moments when the brain chemistry might be particularly out of balance, when physiological forces depress your entire system , you might have cause to consider that social security will pay more in survivors insurance every month than you are making. You might reasonably think that the best thing you can do for your family is to provide them with the only income you can cerrtainly guarantee. That's not cowardice by any means. And it's not a good solution. But it might be the only solution you can think of at that terrible moment.

I know.
 
I agree with a lot of what Jerry says, this knifemaking is a very lonely occupation, but I like the solitude of working by myself most days but there are some that I could sure use a little company. My wife is my biggest supporter and without her encouragement I probably would have given up on knifemaking a few years ago.
I guess the hardest thing and most depressing part is when you pour yourself into your work ( I know we all put a piece of ourselves in every blade) and then people look on it as if its not necessary. And I have definitely felt the pain from people asking why don't you get a REAL job, that can really make a person spirits drop.

BUT THE BEST PARTS ARE I'M MY OWN BOSS, I TRULY LOVE WHAT I DO EVERY DAY AND I HAVE MET SOME OF THE BEST PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD BECAUSE OF WHAT I DO EVERY DAY.

The only advise I can offer is to tell the people that have nothing else to do, but find fault with us that are happy with our lives and jobs, is think before you speak ,wars have started and lives have been lost because of ignorance.

Depression is a killer, so be kind, a few well placed words and actions is all any of us are wanting, good job, beautiful work, keep it up, keep in touch are just a few words that can lift a persons spirits and make them feel important and keep them from becoming depressed and possibly doing something terrible. Take the time to show you care.;)

Bill
 
A lot of interesting stuff said above. Although I'm a psychologist,I don't deal much with issues of suicide on a professional level, and am not familiar with the research, of which I'm sure there's a ton. However, I have dealt with it enough to know that it's not a single thing with a single cause. Are there some people who kill themselves out of weakness and selfishness? Probably. But there are many more who do so for many other reasons, which include mental illness, hopelessness, and profound despair. We certainly can't judge them. Some are even heroes, like the fellow in World War II who killed himself to attract attention because no one would believe his message that Jews were being exterminated. Certainly the advice given above to pay attention to those around us who are in need is important. They should be encouraged to seek the help they need. There's always a reason to live and something else we can strive for, some folks are not able to see the light because they are too enshrouded in darkness. Everyone deserves caring and support. Here's to a happier world!
 
First off thanks Jerry Hossom for pointing out this thread to me.

Yesterday afternoon a good friend and fellow knifemaker took his own life. I will not get into details as I he wouldnt have wanted me to, but I can say some folks that have replyed in this thread are very wrong. Maybe not wrong about all suicides, but certainly wrong about some in general, and this one in particular. Jerry, some of what you said you havce no idea how right you are.

Rest easy friend.
 
THAT IN OUR SOCIETY... LAY PEOPLE.. ( COMMON PEOPLE IN EVERYDAY LIFE)
USE THE TERMS THEY WERE SHOWN OR TAUGHT TO RELATE WITH AN EVENT..
THIS PERSON WAS JUST REITTERATING HIS FEELINGS AT LOOSING SUCH A TALENT IN THE WORLD OF APPRECIATED MAKERS... KINDA LIKE..WHEN WE
LOST JOHN BLEUSHI... ITS A TALENT THAT CAN NEVER BE REPLACED...
THE CLINICAL SIDE OF THE ISSUE WAS NEVER AN ISSUE HERE..EXCEPT FOR YOU....IT WAS ALL SEMANTICS...AND FEELINGS...
 
I also have debated on posting a reply to this thread. Ive had to deal with more suicides in my life that anyone should have to. In coming to terms with this I've learned that no one can pass judgement on someone unfortunate enough to decide that taking thier own life is the only solution. Judgement is left to God in my mind.
 
I just happened across this thread.I myself suffer from depression. I am on medication for this now. After various times of trying to find something that works [feeling like a guinea pig], I am happy now.Happy for me, anyway.

I am sorry to say that I have put my family through some trying times, to say the least{having to live with me}.I have all too often contemplated suicide in my adult life.I started thinking about it when I was in my teens, but decided to hang around because my dad would then have no one to direct his anger toward but my mom. I'm glad I hung around:).But during times of despair you feel such a deep sorrow.It is difficult for many to understand, but as Jerry said, things are magnified. They become disproportionate in one's mind.Your sense of reality is distorted, if you will.What is even more exacerbating is finding the right medication. One that can keep you on an even keel.That said, I am very fortunate and Blessed.I am just offering my point of view.

I am saddened to hear of this loss.I am also saddened by some folk's failure to understand.

I am glad to say that
I am now able to be me and enjoy my life and family.

Never criticize thy neighbor until you have walked a mile in his moccasins.
 
I was NOT going to EVER join in this thread because for me it touches my soul. As some of you know, and many do not, I was a Police officer, shot and critically injured in the line of duty in 1986. I have to this day undegone 41 surgeries to repair the damge from what a 30-.06 does to the human body. I have been there, I have tasted my gun barrel and I WOULD HAVE pulled the trigger had some AH at the time intervened and physically prevented me from doing so. It was 1987, I was just told my career at age 30 was over. WHAT? I have a wife who is five months pregnant, a five year old son and bills up the Butt to pay. No F-ing way I am a COP, GET IT? NO, NO. Sorry but yes. So I started on that downward spiral, smiling and joking on the outside, torn to pieces on the inside. I self-medicated with drugs and booze every second of the day. I was a HERO, I was now a KNOWN all over New England, I am getting medals from everyone, even the President, So F-ing what. Well, the thoughts of worthlessness grew deeper, thoughts of being a nothing grew so strong that I planned and planned on KILLING MYSELF. Yes, it MUST be. I am a worthless nothing. What good am I? I can no longer work, NEVER get better, things will NEVER be RIGHT ever again. Yes, self-murder was the answer. I took a firearm and got out in the woods behind my house. NO NOTE, NO good-bye, and no mess for my wife to deal with. I sat against a tree, absolutely sober and placed the barrel in my mouth. It rested against the roof. I thought one more time, did I WANT to do this? No, I HAD to do this. I began to squeeze the trigger and some AH tackles me, and the gun goes flying. I am pissed, this is Bullsh*t. IF you were a TRUE friend you would have NEVER done that. How come????????
I got help, LOTS of help. I returned to duty and was appointed to the position of chief of Police. I endured, I continued and continue to undergo surgery in order to live as normal a life as possible, but at age 45, after 25 years of LE, the final ten as Chief, I was forced to retire in 1999. I did so with my head held high, my pride, integrity intact, and my self-worth NEVER higher.
I got the help I so desperately needed. was I mentally ill? No, I was in need of intervention. I was suffering from SEVERE Clinical depression, but for me I was given a second chance. I am one of the lucky ones, the AH is my best and dearest friend. Am I cured? NO, but I now know what to do, and NOT to do and I now seek the appropriate help for my disorder........Ira

I do apologize for posting this if you found it offensive. It is the TRUTH......
 
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