Knifemakers and laser cut parts

KenOnion

KenOnion

Joined
Apr 21, 1999
Messages
739
Do you as a consumer mind if a knifemaker utilises laser cut/water cut parts and why ?
Knifemakers will argue that they can offer there product to the consumer at a more reasonable price. That they can clear up some backlog by doing so .And that it really doesn't take any special talent to profile parts laser cuts. and it takes some of the grunt work out of knifemaking leaving more time to add the finnishing touches.
Customers will argue that they want a knife completely hand crafted by the maker as they are buying a part of the maker.
Please discuss as I have been contemplating the use of laser cuts to shorten the backlog .I've had some customers waiting years and am trying my best however they are still waiting.I don't want to piss any one off either by waiting or by laser cutting . Any advice?
 
Here's my opinion, and keep in mind it's just my opinion, and I'm on the low end of the knowledge scale in the custom knife world.

I'm not a purist. I don't demand that a maker do everything the hard way, especially with the advances in technology and the easier availability of computer design and assisted machinery.

As such, I could care less if the maker chooses to use a laser or a bandsaw or a water jet to cut his blanks. I won't demand that he use a belt sander, or a disc sander or any number of others. I don't care if it has a mirror, polished satin, bead blast, or whatever finish.

What I do expect, however, is that the maker puts care and thought and effort into the design and finishing of the knife, and that it meets my aesthetic standards before I purchase it. I expect the maker to do 90% of the actual work on the knife because I'd be purchasing it based on his reputation, not his apprentices, should he have any.

If the maker should use any manner of technological tricks or techniques to speed up his process, more power to him. What I care about is how much thought and care went into the back end of the knife, so that I would have the best finished product that is possible, embodying the charecteristics and traits that I most desire in the knife.

Call me weird, but I'd be perfectly happy with a completely CNC milled knife from a custom maker as long as it wasn't a mass produced, low quality piece of garbage. At the same time, I have a deep respect for the level of ability it takes for a maker to produce their stag handled, rubbed and polished drop point hunter, because I know that there is most likely a lot of skill and practise that went into producing that knife. It's just not what floats my particular boat.

So, if the design is completely drawn out on a computer, tinkered with until it works, then slapped into another computer driven piece of hardware to produce the main guts of the knife before it's personally finished, hey, that's alright by me. Just as long as the same amount of thought and care went into the design; and as much attention was spent on the personal details, I think I'd be a satisfied customer.

Of course, I could have just shown just how little I know about the custom world, but that's my opinion, so sue me.
biggrin.gif


Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Spark - you have some very interesting points.

Ken - what do YOU see as the advantages/disadvantages of laser cut parts?

To me, the big thing about a custom knife is the quality of materials, fit, finish and overall quality control. It's that final inspection, adjustment, polishing, etc., that makes a truly great custom knife.
 
Lemme see....

As a chef, if I whip cream with a mixer instead of by hand, how does this affect the dish?

How 'bout if I use shallots that have been chopped in a robot-coupe (aka cuisinart) instead of hand-chopped.

Is there a difference in the finished dish? Has my capacity as a chef been diminished because the shallots were chopped by machine? Will the finished dish taste different?

The time I *do not* spend chopping the shallot I may now spend in the creation and execution of more advanced dishes!

At the turn of the century fish was pureed by pushing it through a screen. Can I use a robot-coupe to puree or do I have to push the damned fish through the screen?

How I puree the fish...is this really important or is the completed product the point?

FWIW

-Michael
 
I agree with Spark here, AS LONG AS the maker in question makes it clear to the customer what processes were used in making the knife.

As long as the maker isn't being deceitful, I have no problem with him using advanced methods, I just want to see perfect execution of the final knife.

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I need a bigger bucket.
 
Great thoughts in this thread. Spark do not sell yourself short your opinions hit the mark. Personally the results are what is important. It takes skill and thought to produce designs (CNC machining, cad software and laser/water cutting allow a maker with the skills to use such tools to produce parts that with a consistantcy that would be difficult to mirror in parts that were made by hand. Ken you are constantly pushing the envelope in creating new mechanisms. I would think that quite a bit of trial and retrials are involved before you are satisfied with the results. If parts that have been produces with advanced methods allow the evolution to the final design to come to fruition faster so be it. As a collector I wonder how much if any hand finishing is still involved with these parts to achieve the results the maker wants in his design.
 
If the custom maker himself uses the equipment, it is still a custom knife. I really dont think it matters one way or another. I say, if it helps with turn out a better product or helps streamline the process without sacrificing quality then go for it. Spark had alot of valid points on the subject as well.

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-Dennis


 
I really dont think it matters alot if you have the blades lazer or waterjet blanked out. I would rather see a maker use the waterjet method so new heat stress questions are brought into the picture.

With exception of a few makers, most use some sort of machine made part like screws and such, right??

I read Larry Chews recent post on using CAD equipment and such, his post didnt effect my desire to own one of his knives! It actually peaked my interest as it sounds like Larry has a little personality to boot!

Any how, i wouldnt mind if a maker used the method of his choice to cut out the blanks. Especially if it cut down on backlog, or saved money etc..

 
As a consumer:
I really care if a maker uses modern methods of construction-I appreciate it and think that the maker is trying to serve his client by suppling his product at the best quality and at the shortest time.
Who wants to wait on an ordered knife while the maker is tediously hand shaping and grinding what could be done more efficiently with modern methods
I also appreciate the fact that with more modern methods if I see a product and desire one in the same style, when I get it it will be the same in quality and style as the example I looked at. The ART of planning, design, engineering and application is admired and appreciated when it shows up in a product. If one person does all this, then I consider it custom or handmade even if another person trained, and overseen by the author is used in the process, The name of the maker on the knife signifies final responsibility and originality and warrantee of the product.
My only requirement is that no part of the construction be shipped out to another country, wherever the maker resides. (This just a bias/predjudice of my own, If it says made in the USA, Germany, wherever, that is where it should be made entirely.
 
As a novice maker, here are my thoughts.

I have no problem with laser-cutting, water-jet cutting, or any other method of profiling parts. There is virtually no skill involved in profiling something like a blade blank - I still do it myself with a bandsaw and grinder ONLY because my operation is small. This is dummy-work and the maker shows nothing special by doing it him/herself - if one cared about this, the next step would be to insist that the maker buy barstock in 22' mill lengths instead of letting it be cut to smaller sizes by a supplier.

CNC-work gets a bit trickier. Being able to do nice chamfering, radiusing, contouring, etc. are all skills that a maker must cultivate by hand. A computer can sometimes do nearly as well, but I have certain gripes:

1) It lacks a certain human touch that makes each piece unique. I DO believe that some variations from a human hand add character; imperfections from a machine are merely flaws.

2) I don't see how the maker is personally fulfilled by letting a machine do this, and that sense of fulfillment and joy in creation is a key ingredient in a nice knife, IMO.

3) Credit should be given to the machine. If I let someone else do engraving or other skilled work on my knife, I should give them credit. The same should hold for a machine.

I agree that in folders and especially autos there are areas where a machine is necessary for precision mechanisms. But this is very different than when the machine is merely saving the maker time by doing complex, skilled jobs like handle-shaping. I can appreciate nice milling, but I personally prefer nice handwork.

On a final note, every knife involves important decisions that are made on the basis of time, equipment, and economy. I think all makers know this, though some collectors don't seem to. It's not a process of just "what knife do I envision" but "what do I have the skills, time, and equipment to make." Beadblasting is common over mirror-polishing for largely economical reasons. Chamfering is used instead of radiusing for similar reasons. Bolsters have 90-degree fits instead of dovetails. Reverse curves are rare, tantos are common. Linerlocks outnumber more complex mechanisms. These things are usually decided by economy, not performance.

That isn't a bad thing, per se, it's a fact-of-life in any manufacturing process. But we must realize that the more accepting we become of the machine-made knife, the more knives will look "machine-made." Decisions will be made by what's easier for a CNC-mill to do instead of a person and this will affect the shape of popular knives. In fact, it already has, but some may confuse it with fashion. Look at the flat surfaces and sharp angles of a Microtech sometime. The harsh chamfers and precise angles, the stark inlays and uniform notching. The multiple repetition of identical knives that cannot be distinguished even by close examination. This is the CNC'ed knife, and it's the shape of things to come if we continue on this path.

That's production, you say? Yes, but many "handmade" makers are approaching this. I recently learned that a certain prominent maker produced about 1500 pieces in one year. How? By CNC-work, of course, and it is immediately apparent in his pieces.

Is that a bad thing or a good thing? You, as the customer, decide.

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-Drew Gleason
Little Bear Knives
 
Thanks,
It is unanamous everyone so far doesnt mind laser cuts. Iapreciate the input guys ,makes my decision much easier.
Any purists out there who think differently?
It has alwayse been important to me to make them all completely by hand.However as you all attest profiling is a no brainer.Maybe I need to evolve a little. There is nothing I like better than an ecstatic customer/friend. Maybe this way I won't have to turn down orders and disapoint anyone. I will still do the rest by hand.I have alwayse been a one man operation and like it that way this way hopefully I can catch up and include even more customers.
Aloha!!! Ken
 
I would recommend that you read Alan Elishewitz's article on this subject. It is posted at www.knifeart.com |very articulate.

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Dances with lemmings


 
Ken,
First off I have to say I love your work. I handled one of your speed safe folders 2 years ago at the Little Rock, Arkansas show. It was on a dealers table. At that time I had not heard of you yet. I picked the knife up first out of probably 60 on a table. I just thought it was a good looking liner lock. I flicked the the thumb bob. Boy was I surprised. I did not know how, it could be so fast and so smooth. I was super inpressed. A short time later, your name was every where. Very understandable why.
Second, my opinion on your question. You should talk to your customers that have been waiting, about this. Ask them if they mind if you have parts cut. They probably won't. They will also probably be pleased that you thought to ask.
Thrird. I have no problem with your knives if you profile them, or have them laser cut. I personally grind my profile. I may however be in your shoes soon. I am glad to see this post. It will help me with this decision, when I have to make it.

You make awesome knives. I will have to own one some day.



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Lynn Griffith-Tactical Knifemaker
Winner of "Best Tactical Knife" at 1999 PKA show
My website
See my award winning "Spec Ops Tanto" in Gallery 3 of my website
GriffithKN@aol.com
Discounts to Police and Active Duty Military


 
I have been sitting quietly on the side to let the collectors have their say first and am surprised at the liberal attitude with regard to technology.

What I have seen in the market place is an escalting demand for precision fit and finish along with a reluctance to the higher prices that result from the time taken to achieve that fit and finish.

The time has come to let the public know that in order to devote the extra time to fit and finish some of the bull work ie profiling, will have to be done according to your precision drawings by computer controlled devices. The public is ready to accept that the rough profiling does not affect the finished fit and finish of a knife in any way because the actual knifemaking does not take place until the excess material has been removed. It is no more cheating than the use of precision ground flat bar is over forging from home made sponge iron.

Ken go ahead with the water jet cutting confident that the parts are being produced by a machine to your exact requirements as a result of your own drawings. These drawings make the parts of your authorship.

If anyone wants a completely handmade knife I am sure that you can accomodate them complete with notorized certificates of hand made authenticity at an appropriate price....
payable up front. Otherwise acknowledge the technical assistance if asked and keep on making a fine knife.

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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com

 
Ken, does this mean that you'll be returning my Dremel Tool, as you have found another way to profile? Another source of income gone.
frown.gif
 
I don't know the particulars of laser cutting, although I understand (and it makes sense) why a laser, might affect the heat treat on a blade. Water cutting I understand doesn't do this.

As for whether you should or not, it really comes down to how you want to do it. Personally having some of the stuff done by computer or cnc doesn't bother me a bit.

I'm in the field, I'm an engineer and I sit in front of a computer all day long using AutoCAD. Most people who have a problem with machines doing the work, don't use these machines. I get from my bosses, "why is that taking so long"? They think that because I have a powerful computer and powerful software that 10 min. after the tell me something it should be done. Having a computer or CNC machine is not like having a magic wand you don't wave it and voila everythings done. I had this very arguement today, I told my boss "there's no such thing as a button on your computer that says ""everything you said is done"" this button does not exist.

What autocad (and all the other cad software out there) gives you is consistancey and pre-modeling corrections. You can figure out conflicts and problems with a design on screen before you've made a prototype and have to start fiddleing with it to get something to work or to fit the way you want. You can design a single handle to accept multiple blade types, etc. etc.

The CNC machine gives you consistant, repeatable parts. Once you've overcome the design/programing phase it does get simple, but how many people get past that point? Not to many believe me, the standards for CAD operators nowadays tells me how difficult it can be.

Sould you do it? well I understand that if your purist enough, there's only one knifemaker out there who's acceptable, I forgot his name but he's amish and all his knives are made without powertools. That's right no grinders, no buffers, all "handmade"!
wink.gif


So where do you draw the line? Can you buy screws or bearings or do you have to make them yourself? clips, bought or made? No power tools?

I say go for it!

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~ JerryO ~


[This message has been edited by JerryO (edited 27 September 1999).]

[This message has been edited by JerryO (edited 27 September 1999).]
 
Ken

As a begining knife maker some jobs are mindless tasks.
I found this out as a woodworker. Why cut moulding by hand when a moulding machine can turn out thousands of feet? In woodworking there is nothing wrong with using machine made parts, ie. moulding, and machinery to mill, cut out, or otherwise make parts, but doing the actual putting together of those parts, the fitting and finishing, by hand. That is where the handcrafted custom work comes in. Sure you could use hand moulding planes, a pit saw, etc. to "really" have a handcrafted, per Roy Underwood, piece of furnature. But you get the same finished piece is less time, read $$$, if some machining is used. No one really cares how much of a "handcrafted" table was machined as long as the end result meets the advertising of the piece and expectations of the buyer.
Should it really matter with knives, as long as it was not hidden. I, for one, don't think so.
There are some knife makers out there that weld a tang of mild steel onto a blade of pattern welded "hand" forged steel that most of the work was done on a power hammer. Does that take away from the effort put forth in the design, execution, etc involved in the knife?
As long as the parts are your design, put together by you, and finished by your hand, even if it is on machinery, if should stand as a "handmade" knife.

Just my $.10, inflation you know.

Dwight

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This post is a natural product.
The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.

 
Guys: I think the real issue here is being honest with your customers. This is the issue that has gotten knifemakers into trouble with the Guild, and perhaps damaged their credibility. As a Knifemaker, I must, at a minimum, do all the finishing operations required to make a particular knife, BY MYSELF. It doesn't matter how the parts were profiled, but, I'd better be the one grinding, fitting and finishing. If I use a commercial KYDEX sheath, or a waterjet or laser, fine, as long as I openly state that. Just fessing up to it when asked directly doesn't count, as many will assume I am doing it all myself if I say nothing.
I don't think anyone expects me to make my own screws, etc. Heck, no one could afford the knife if I did EVERYTHING, And, hey, I CAN'T make the steels I use from scratch. You've got to draw the line somewhere.
As to apprentices, I think it's very appropriate to state on the knife that it was made by more than one set of hands.

RJ Martin
 
I agree with Spark and George.I expect craftsmen to use the best tools, so they can focus their craft where it makes a difference
and is important. I agree with R.J. that once you start CNCing some parts, you should let your customers know. Nothing wrong with it, if they know and still want the knife.

Canuck
 
IT is not cost effective to use laser or water jet on one of a kind projects. The sad fact is there are people in our industry who think its a sin for a knifemaker to have a part laser cut or water cut. Well lets look at the facts. Is it a sin to have a laboror stand at a band saw and do the same thing?
There are many makers who point the finger at makers who use laser cutting and wj cutting.
But its ok to have a grunt cut out stuff clean the shop drill holes and such ? Right?
For this reason
I have just set my knifemaking company
up into two seperate type of knives. Tactical and custom.. I will explain to my clients how and what methods I use for the type of knife I am making. Each knife type Custom and tactical will be marked differently soon also .
This will stop any confusion from this point on... I am doing this for just the same reason Ken is asking this question.
The other reason is that the inventions that I come with can be time stamped on my site .
I will be doing this with my mirage release system and the new lock I have comming out soon. The courts are look at a time stamp as better proof than a paper file or drawing.

There is not that much of a saving to laser and wj cutting . Its just the payroll and all the crap that comes with having a grunt do the cut out work sweeping drilling ect for the maker is extremly expensive and there are health and safty issues.

Im going to get a bit out of charecter for me here! Im going to say what I want for a change

Im tired of these folks in our industry who have been using wj ,laser and cnc for 20 years putting the thumb on the sucsessful makers of today saying its a sin... HAHAHAHA . The thing is I advise these folks to shut down there propaganda before someone lets the cat out of the bag hahahahah ... Do as I say not as I do just dont cut it anymore fellas. Were on to ya!
In a recent article a maker who has been using cnc edm for 15 years (farming out all the designs to another shop) comes out of the closet and says we all should tell our clients that we use cnc ..
What a joke!
How about investing in your future ...Buy modern machines and make good quality knives. I do the work in my shop for my knives. How I do it doesent matter . Just as long as I do the work :]
.. WOW a revelation!!!!

Make the knives the best you can...
The whole idea is to raise the level of quality and design. Thats what the clients of tommorow really want.... Good knives , cool designs that really work, and makers who can stay on the cutting edge..

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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




 
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