Knifemakers and laser cut parts

I think that this is a fantastic thread and I'm enjoying every comment, but I do feel that folks discussing CNC-work have skimmed past my comments on the matter. I'd really appreciate feedback.

I am not concerned with the integrity of CNC-machining on knifemakers, but of its effects on the knives. The tools we use affect the knives we make. Design and construction isn't dictated by pure whim, but by the constraints of our skills, our materials, and our tools... and most of all, for the professional maker, by our bottom line.

We are seeing changes in knife construction and design that reflect optimization for CNC processes. To collectors, I fear these look like "fashion" - but they are mainly driven by economy. This optimization of production is not a new thing, only the tools being optimized for are new. My questions:

Is the effect of optimizing knife designs for CNC-production a positive one? Do you like the largely CNC-milled "modern" style of knife?

-Drew
 
Heres the scoop. SOME of the modern knives do not take advantage of tooling as they should because of cost and time savings. I wont name any knife that Im thinking of but they are made with speed not to fit the hand and eye.
IT takes extra time to do this process and design time is great. I feel that if the knife is desinged right a knife made from a cad file can be really much better looking than most any knife I have ever seen. If the designer works hard at using every aspect of tooling and client comfort while staying with tooling that can be had off the shelf ... the knife is a winner. So I feel in the semi production type knife (model knife as some call them) that the folks who know tooling and the extent of what a cnc machine can do will be the winner in the end..

As for the look of today .. Much better and cleaner. A bit sterile if the maker dont do the hand finishing also. But all in all much better as for quality...

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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11 October 1999).]
 
Ken,

Let's say you decide to adopt laser cutting, water jet cutting or whatever else. How much time will this save you per knife? Would you end up reducing your prices because you have less labor per knife?


Just curious,
Don
 
ATTA BOY DARREL!!! Why not utilize technology as long as it raises the quality of the finished product. I am underway on my signature series and just had a $5000 sheet of Talonite laser cut into blades for the first run. The way I am doing this is using a different mark than my normal mark and telling customers exactly how they are made. Most are clamoring to get a knife this way as the wait is much less and the quality is the same, or maybe even better is some ways. My 2 cents worth!

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www.simonichknives.com
 
I don't care how they cut the blade. Forged, stock removal, laser cut, the craftsmanship is the difference. I care what they end up with.

Dave R
 
I talked to a well known maker recently who had some laser cut blanks in the past that came out undersized. He doesn't use laser cutting anymore.

Maybe water jet is a better method, I don't know.

I think the point is hand fitting/adjustment comes into play regardless of how the parts are cut. These new methods may be faster and easier, but not necessarily perfect.

Especially when you are talking about traditional construction; liners, leaf lock, handle slabs.



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Regards,
Ron Knight

Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it
 
Ken,

This thread will undoubtedly be in contention for best of the year in our next go around. The information and views presented are very illuminating. Personally, I'm not a purist and have no objection to the use of technology so long as it is disclosed up front. Not only to I echo that opinion already expressed here by many others, but I concur with the notion that overall design and execution rank tops in what I look for.

Again, many thanks for daring to start this thread!!!!

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-=[Bob Allman]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

BFC member since the very beginning
AKTI membership pending
VHA and NRA member

 
I dont see what the big deal is I have used a couple of laser cut blank's you still have to go back and clean up after the cut ,my problem lyes with knifemakers griping about other's having blades laser cut while their using a CNC.to mill their grindlines,personaly I use 5 different belt grinders,2 drill presses,2 disksanders,1 homade table saw,1 cheep-o bandsaw,forge & a heat treating oven Tank.
 
There was a statment above about a knifemaker getting his blanks cut to small from the lazer cutter.. This should be an indication that a good knife even if laser cut will have to be hand finished to look great. So whats the big deal?
Lets raise the level of knife quality and design ...
I think the revolution is already here. :]The changing of the guard has started.

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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 18 October 1999).]
 
I have a question.

If you are having your blades profiled by someone else, does the manner in which they do it matter?

My reason for asking is that I currently do all my own profiling, as well as every other step. I have gotten very busy, and would benifit from having my blades profiled off site. I am very reluctant to do this though, as I am unsure of customer opinion. Also, my wife seems to disaprove.

If I had my blades profiled off site it would be by method of cnc machine. I would only have the profiling and drilling done by the cnc machine, all other work to the knife (including heattreat) would be done by me.

This is not a decision made. I would like to have all of your help possible in making this decision. If I do have the blades profiled by cnc, it will not lower the prices of my knives. It will however lower delivery times, and increase the amount of knives that I can have in stock.


Thank you,

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Lynn Griffith-Tactical KnifemakerMy website
See my award winning "Spec Ops Tanto" in Gallery 3 of my website
GriffithKN@aol.com

 
I agree that as long as the maker is up front about how his knives are made, than there will be no problems. I am sure as long as the quality is superior to a production knife the consumer will let you know with his dollars. I know a few custom pistolsmiths who do not build guns anymore, but have skilled employees who still make the guns. They are still able to command top dollar because of the quality of the guns that they build. They also provide top notch after sales service too. I believe that the custom knifemakers can fall into a similiar situation. As long as you have a good design, superior quality, and provide outstanding after sales service, you will still have a market for your knives.
 
Since this thread as died down, I have gotten to talk with several more knifemakers at shows. As always, the more information I get, the more I want. I am posting again to this thread to bring it back. I think it answers alot of questions about production methods and customer opinions. I would realy like to hear more opinions from both knifemakers and knife buyers. I would also like to hear if Ken has gotten any laser cutting done since this thread started, and if he finds that it helped his productivity.

Thanks,

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Lynn Griffith-Knifemaker

My website
GriffithKN@aol.com


 
I think for the most part I have to agree that using some CNC parts will not ruin the "custom" aspect of a knife. The finished product is the most important part and I agree that it should be hand finished, inspected, as tight as possible and cosmetically pleasing.
On the other hand, where is the limit? If it's ok for a machine to do one task, it is ok for it to do two? Or three? Where is the line between custom and production? If all the knife maker does is handinspect the final product and perhaps handtightens the screws, is it still a custom knife?
To use Chefget's analogy: No, it shouldn't matter if you chop the shallot by hand or with the machine. Or the mushrooms, or anything else. But at one point, you're just ripping the cover of a TV dinner and some machine will have chopped the mushrooms for ya, sliced the carrots, mashed the potatoes and cubed the meat. All you have to do is heat it up. Is that still a gourmet meal (even if only the highest quality ingredients were used)?
Another aspect: Part of the appeal to have a custom knife by any maker is the fact that it's special. Each piece takes time and due to that, there are fewer of them. As Ken points out, some customers are waiting for years. But once the customer receives his/her piece, they have something that isn't going to be duplicated too fast, which adds to the value, rarety, specialness (is that a word?). If the time in making the knife is cut down too much by using machines that can spit out parts fast, then this aspect is lost.
From what I understand, a CNC machine is not cheap. So in order for it to pay for itself, you'll have to use it heavily. Either that or farm the CNC work out. I don't know if there will be a minimum order for a 2nd party to do the machine work, but I don't think that they will do just one of something. Playing Devil's Advocate, this will undoubtly lead to looking for the best price for CNC work and next thing you know, half the knife is made in Japan.
So IMHO, if the machine work can save the maker a week and some unneccessary labor, then fine. If you're able to catch up on a backlog of several years by using machine parts, then at least in my opinion, I'm no longer receiving a true "Custom" handcrafted knife and the price should reflect that.
That doen't mean that the a knife almost completely made with machined product is going to be garbage. Not at all.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Ingmar


[This message has been edited by Arizona (edited 20 December 1999).]
 
This is actually a fairly important question for me, and I've been following this thread with considerable interest. I've spent roughly 30 years as a mechanical design engineer, both in industry and as a consultant. I'm trying to combine that engineering experience with a seemingly never ending list of "to be developed" skills in order to make custom knives. A piece of the engineering skills part of the equation is a familiarity with a number of manufacturing and design processes.

I understand (and agree with) the concerns of customers who don't want to buy that "TV dinner knife". I also also don't want to turn my knifemaking into "Bob's excellent engineering adventure". That's not why I want to make knives. In thinking about this and other posts as well as discussions I've had with knife makers and buyers in the past year, I've come to sort of a "soft rule" for the inclusion of non-traditional processes into my knife making.

"If a process improves the quality of my knives and increases my output without separating me in some way from the finished product or preventing me from learning about knife making, I'll use it."

I've profiled knives, both with the belt grinder and with files. I've also made a lot of wood dust doing similar operations on wood parts. The half hour it takes to do this job well is probably better spent (by me anyway) in grinding the bevels or finishing to the highest possible standard. My customer will get a better product, and I will still know how to profile a knife on the belt grinder when I work from a customer's sketch rather than from my own design.

By the same token, I wouldn't automate the grinding of the bevel. Too much of this operation is "felt" in order to judge what's right.

I recognize that I'm walking a fuzzy line here. I'm not sure I'll feel the same way after 50, 100 or 500 knives (or after loosing 2 or 3 sales). I would also be cautious about pushing my "soft rule" on anyone else. We all come to this with a little different baggage.

Thanks,
Bob Couture
 
Lynn,

Thank you for bringing this topic back to life as it is indeed an important one .

To answer your question no I havn't done it yet however I need to. I'm setting here with a very large list of E-mails and letters about the Boa knife and havn't taken any firm orders as I'm still backed up from last year. I'm in a serious delema as I have to choose either cut parts and supply some demand or turn away customers and potential friends and piss off a lot of people . What would you do under similar circumstances or should I say what do you do to supply demand ?
 
Originally posted by KenOnion:
What would you do under similar circumstances or should I say what do you do to supply demand ?[/B]
Click to expand...
Ken,
That is why I brung the question back to life. My delivery time now is still short (3 months on standard models), and I would like to be able to keep it short for as long as possible. As of now, all work including cutting and profile is done by me in my shop. I am very tempted though to have my most popular model (the Patrolman), laser cut as I know it will be featured in an upcoming article. Like you I am full time. Laser cutting would increase my ability to make more knives, which I think would be welcomed by my customer base. Please keep me posted on thoughts on this. I also hope to pick up some more feedback about this from knife users.

Thanks,

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Lynn Griffith-Knifemaker

griffithknives.com
GriffithKN@aol.com
Available Knives
 
i've been selling my knives for over a couple of years now. i am not a full time maker, but i feel the time i devote to knifemaking is extensive. i too have popular models that i profile individually. but the fact of the matter is, i spend a lot of time profiling the same knife, with almost the exact same profile, every time.

i designed a push dagger with extremely close radius turns on the handle (read - hard to profile) i diplayed it at a small show, and the interest was overwhelming. at that point i decided that hydro-cutting was my best "tool" in producing this pattern. this attitude, (just another tool) has allowed me to sleep nights knowing that although the profile was done by someone else, (as is my heat treating) i still grind, finish, and handle my knives, therefore i am the maker. sole authorship is something to be proud of, but for some of us, pride is costly. www.geocities.com/chrishatin/hatintec.html

[This message has been edited by Chris Hatin (edited 21 December 1999).]
 
personally, i feel it doesn't matter how the blade gets knocked out, i use a plasma cutter, the blade ends up no different then if i were to use a waterjet cutter, or hacksaw, bandsaw, ect. if it takes you 2 hours, or 10min to knock out the blade it doesn't make a difference in blade performance. i've found alot of people buy customs becuase of the material choice, the makers professional opinion, and the fact that it's made buy a professional, finshed buy a professional, and inspected buy a professional.
 
Good question. For those of you who have a standard model it makes sence to speed up the process if you need the output. For the ones who make each knife to order or only a few of one design (like me) the process just isn't worth it. If you need it, go for it, I doubt you will ruffle many feathers.

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old pete
 
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