Knifemakers Guild / Shackleford / Terzuola

A

Architect

Gold Member
Joined
May 31, 2001
Messages
2,215
I just got the new Blade last night (gold Kious knife on the cover) and there is a Steven Shackleford story about Bob Terzuola's address to the Knifemakers Guild. Apparently, Bob and others are not allowed to attend the Guild show because the Guild does not allow for many types of technology or the outsourcing of parts. Bob's opinion is that the Guild should not be telling makers how to make knives and that a continuation of this prohbition would lead to a further demise of the Guild.

I didn't bring in the mag to scan, but has anyone else read this yet?

Here is the read Guild's mission statement:

The purposes of the Guild were, and continue to be: to promote custom knives and knifemakers, to assist the knifemaker technically, to encourage ethical and professional business conduct, and to sponsor an annual business meeting and knife show. Later in the bylaws, the Guild specifically identifes that the knifemaker engage in the making and selling of "handmade" knives.

Fundamentally, these so-called "handmade" knives are really "hand-assembled knives using selected tools and selected heat treat methods". If the idea is that the Guild is promoting "individuals" then I don't think Bob has a leg to stand on, since his blanking work is not done by him, it is outsourced. Bob's opinion is that a better rule would simply require that you grind your own blade.

While many on the BF custom forum agree that full disclosure is both a good business and ethical practice, should the Guild just promote the best in knifemaking and make membership based on full disclosure? Or, should the Guild continue to dictate specifc methodologies? Is the Guild relevant to you or your purchases?

I personally haven't a clue as to whether any of the makers knives I have purchased are Guild members. How about you?
 
The industry has changed, the bylaws haven't kept up.

IMO the guild should:

- Promote full disclosure about manufacturing technique.
- Not specify how a knife and by what means it should be made.
 
I think that the problem the Guild had with Bob was that when asked he wasn't upfront with them about what he was doing. He said was doing all the work and he really wasn't, so they asked him leave.

One of the problems the Guild has is Recruiting new members. When I was there for my probationary judging in 2004 I was the youngest guy in the room, and I was 28 then!
 
I think that they should promote full disclosure and have rules as to how its members are allowed to make knives. Advances in technology should be taken into consideration, but I don't feel that it should be anything goes as long as the maker discloses it.
 
but I don't feel that it should be anything goes
Click to expand...

That's the problem, anything does go, and they be out of date the very day they penned and passed the rules. What purpose does dictating how a knife be made achieve?

I've said this before, there's only one issue, Quality. That's the primary thing they should care about. The rest are disclosure. education and promotion.
 
DaveH said:
I've said this before, there's only one issue, Quality. That's the primary thing they should care about. The rest are disclosure. education and promotion.
Click to expand...

And it is not that simple, and that is a misguided opinion IMO....at some point you cross the line into being a knife factory, and that is not what the Guild is about, nor should it be.

The Knifemaker's Guild Mission Statement:

The purposes of the Guild were, and continue to be: to promote custom knives and knifemakers, to assist the knifemaker technically, to encourage ethical and professional business conduct, and to sponsor an annual business meeting and knife show.

The show prohibits certain kinds of knives, but voting membership is open to a great many knifemakers.

Do I feel that the Guild has dropped the ball in the past?....yes......Do I feel that their exclusionary attitude towards certain types of makers is the problem?......no.

How many "custom" knives did you have again? And in this particular case, it is totally germane to the discussion. Sometimes I AM just being an a-hole, but not in this case.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Heh, how many do I need to have before my opinion is worth anything?

What number of knives a year constitutes a knife factory? 10? 50? 200? 1000? A limit on the number of knives per year really has no meaningful reason to exist unless it's to promote exclusivity.

For purposes of these Bylaws, the term "Handmade Knives" shall mean those knives that are 100% made by the maker, in the maker's own shop using his or her own equipment.
Click to expand...

So by strict reading, any folder or fixed blade using bought screws is out. However CNC machine is allowed.
 
DaveH said:
Heh, how many do I need to have before my opinion is worth anything?

What number of knives a year constitutes a knife factory? 10? 50? 200? 1000? A limit on the number of knives per year really has no meaningful reason to exist unless it's to promote exclusivity.

So by strict reading, any folder or fixed blade using bought screws is out. However CNC machine is allowed.
Click to expand...

1. 5:)

2. It has long been my thought that promoting a certain degree of exclusivity was an unspoken goal of the Guild.

3. Allen Elishewitz addressed this somewhere else and indicated that pivots and screws were OK.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
striper28 said:
I think that the problem the Guild had with Bob was that when asked he wasn't upfront with them about what he was doing. He said was doing all the work and he really wasn't, so they asked him leave.
Click to expand...


BULLSHIT....

Bob will respond to this shortly.

Way to go, Chuck.:foot:

Neil
 
The Guild is there for a reason. If it is going to be anything goes, then there is no need for a Guild at all.

Minor parts like screws can be outsourced. Should a knife that is little more than assembled pre-made parts be considered a custom knife? Not as far as I am concerned. It is fine to believe the opposite, but I'm never going to be persuaded into that group.
 
It has long been my thought that promoting a certain degree of exclusivity was an unspoken goal of the Guild.
Click to expand...

fine but that's opinion and not a stated goal of the guild, therefore it's a specious argument about the guild wanting to preventing a knife factory.

Allen Elishewitz addressed this somewhere else and indicated that pivots and screws were OK
Click to expand...

unless the copy of the bylaws i found is not the current one, then pivots and screws are NOT ok. It's quite clear on that.

If it is going to be anything goes, then there is no need for a Guild at all.
Click to expand...

tearing down a very poorly constructed strawman has merit not. It is useful for the guild to promote and support certain aspects, just not ones that no longer have relevance.

Should a knife that is little more than assembled pre-made parts be considered a custom knife?
Click to expand...

Don't know, but that's not what we are talking about at all.
 
I’ve spent lots of time discussing this issue with knifemakers. The issue is always:

Where do you draw the line?

- Blade steel?
- CNC made parts?
- Damascus?
- Engraving?
- Folder pivots?
- Heat treating?
- Micarta?
- Mosaic Pins?
- Pre-processed raw materials?
- Screws?

If wood is used as a handle material, should the knifemaker:
- Fall the tree
- Resaw the logs into lumber
- Cut the lumber into blocks
- Kiln dry the blocks
- Stabilize the wood
If no, why? If yes, why?

If mammoth ivory is used in should the knifemaker:
- Find the tusk
- Sand off the crust
- Cut the scales or blocks
If no, why? If yes, why?

Some knifemakers smelt their steel from iron sand. Should all knifemakers make their own blade steel?
If no, why? If yes, why?

If damascus is made at a hammer-in with several people working on the billet, can the steel be used by everyone to make knives?
If no, why? If yes, why?

What about materials provided by a collector? If the material is on the “wrong” side of the line should the knifemaker refuse to use the material?
If no, why? If yes, why?

Should a pivot made in a shop by CNC be acceptable and a folder liner made by CNC not be acceptable?
If no, why? If yes, why?

If no part can be made by CNC, what about tools that are made by CNC tools?
If no, why? If yes, why?

What about shop assistants/apprentices? What level of work is acceptable to by made by the assistant?
If none, why? If any, why?

Most of the examples above have knifemakers doing the work themselves and other knifemakers buying the parts/services/tools.

Where do you draw the line?
 
If you truly want to create something from scratch, first you must create the universe...

Les George
 
I think Chuck makes a really good point here. Different people are going to have different opinions about where to draw the line, and it doesn't sound like the Guild's current bylaws make that distinction.

To answer Architect's original post, for me, personally, the Guild is not relevant to my collecting. I don't know which makers I collect are in it, and which ones are not, and I'm perfectly OK with that. Between the two choices that he gave, my personal opinion is that the Guild should just promote the best in knifemaking and make membership based on full disclosure. I am not in favor of the Guild dictating specific methodologies, because, as Chuck implied, it is going to be pretty arbitrary where the line is drawn.
 
Assemblers very often try to make this topic seem complicated by bringing up the fall the tree, find the tusk, smelt the steel scenarios .
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I draw the line at outsourcing of major components of the knife.
Click to expand...

Chuck will ask you to explain why, Keith....FWIW, I agree with you.

I am paying a maker to employ skills that I cannot, in a timely manner. I want sweat equity.

If I want a factory knife...I buy one, at wholesale, pretty much any factory knife I want. I get pissed off when I find out a maker is a mini-factory when I didn't know it, and pay full boat. I would have negotiated with greater eye on discount, had full disclosure been presented.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Let me rephrase, I heard that Bob was doing those things from other makers and Guild members, so it was hearsay on my part. I have however seen the laser cut parts he displays on his table.

If you come to a show with over 30 knives are you still a custom maker or now a small production company?

Does the outsourcing of parts, which then equals less work for you, lower the price of your knife?

Does this thread threaten dealers who have Bob's knives on their websites?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top