Knifemakers Guild / Shackleford / Terzuola

Kevin Jones said:
Assemblers very often try to make this topic seem complicated by bringing up the fall the tree, find the tusk, smelt the steel scenarios .
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Chuck Bybee said:
Why don't you respond to where you would draw the line?
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Like Keith, I draw the line at outsourcing of major components of the knife.

I see a deference in a maker starting with wonderful piece of natural walrus tusk and working it into a beautiful handle than another starting with a machined blank and assembling parts to it. But that's just me. ;) :)
 
Keith, Steven and Kevin,

What are your specific definitions of a major components or parts and I'll also add skills?
 
My reading of the current Guild rules leads me to belive that basic parts like screws, etc are OK. The Guild also does not allow the use of cast blades even if the maker did the casting. I do not have a problem with these rules. The one rule that i have a problem with is that purveyors who are Guid members may still be prohibited from selling knives at the show by non-Guild makers. Seems a little silly. As far as the handmade rule goes, I think that a more reasonable rule might be that if they maker is still making knives by hand, then he is good to go even if he is making a lot of "mid-tech" knives or using outsourced components to meet demand or hold down his prices on using knives.
With that said, I read in the ABS journal that the Guild has a new rule that any ABS Master Smith can join the Guild as a full voting member without going through the probationary process. This seems like a good idea to me and I think it would also be a good idea if the Guild allowed Journeymen Smiths to become probationary members without having get the signatures and do the initial show, etc.
 
I read, with interest, the posts in this reply and I value them all....with one glaring exception.

I would suggest that Chuck Gedraitis (Striper28) obtain some facts before expounding so definitively on a subject of which he is woefully ignorant. While mr. Gedraitis sounds as if he actually knows what he is talking about, history and countless witnesses turn his foolish theories into smoke and drivel.

I find it baffling that one person can make so many mistakes in so short a message, but I will try to explain, once again, ( in simple terms and small words so that even Striper28 cannot fail to understand) what the reality of my position with the Guild is now and has always been, even during my nine years as a Director:

1) I was the first knife maker to use laser cut parts for my folders, starting in 1988.

2) The first show at which I sold knives with laser cut parts was the Knifemakers Guild Show in July of that year. They were welcomed with enthusiasm.

3) AT THAT SAME SHOW...I openly displayed several laser cut parts in the raw, on my table and continued to do so for about 15 years after. I freely advertised the use of laser cutting by Lynndale, in Phoenix and still carry the parts to my shows.

4) I used the laser cut parts as a SELLING POINT to my customers in keeping with the high-tech image of my knives which they had come to expect of me. If Striper28 had botered to view my table during those years or had exercised common courtesy by calling and questioning me before spouting fairy tales, I would have been happy to explain all this to him at any time.

5) The laser cutting fit in very nicely with the the use of space-age Titanium (I was the second knife maker to use that exotic material after Michael Walker). The laser was a big hit with my customers who applauded me for SAVING THEM MONEY by not having to charge them for my time, ill-spent at a band saw

6) I was NEVER asked to leave the Guild, by anyone at any time. In fact, I am still a dues paying, honest to God, Rootin-Tootin, true blue VOTING member who, incidentally, just voted in the latest round of elections at the last Guild Show in Orlando.

7) I have not attended recent Guild shows as a table holder due to the fact that, as I interpret the recent ill-conceived changes in the By-Laws, my knives, as I choose to make them, are no longer welcome at the show.
I have been asked my many members, including Presidents and Board members to take a table at the shows. The decision to withdraw as a table holding attendee was mine alone.
I have not changed my techniques or style of knife making nor concealed or mis-represented same to my customers. The Guild has changed the rules in mid-game and I cannot, with integrity display my knives at our show as long as those exclusionary rules are in effect. However, I will continue to pay my dues and retain my status as a voting member.

Bottom line? I believe that the Guild should not micro-manage how a maker crafts his knives or what manner of knives a customer must expect from a Guild member. I believe that the market place alone should dictate the success or failure of a craftsman and that he or she must be open and forthright with the customer as to how those knives were made.

I further believe that the customer, informed with an honest and complete assessment of the makers' skills and techniques, should be able to decide for himself which knives he will buy and which he will reject.

BOB TERZUOLA

I'll see you all in New York in November!
 
For me, major components are blade, handle, bolsters, guards, frames on folders and any other parts except screws, pins, etc. As long as the maker does the work himself I am not concerned about the tools used by the maker, including CNC. I prefer when a maker does his own embellishments and heat treatment, but don't object when this is done by someone else. Sheaths can also be made by someone else.

For me, what is important is that the maker actually makes the knife. Just assembling and doing some final finishing to parts that were made by someone else doesn't cut it for me. As far as I am concerned, that's nothing more than being a glorified kit maker. There's nothing wrong with knives made that way, but they will never be custom knives to me.
 
Ahhhhh.......I was not aware that this particular rule was new. I, for one, stand corrected, sir.:thumbup: The fact that the rule would seem to exclude makers who are doing what you have been doing for almost 20 years does seem a bit odd.
 
What about assistants helping in a knifemakers shop? What level of work can an assistant do without crossing a line?
 
Chuck Bybee said:
What about assistants helping in a knifemakers shop? What level of work can an assistant do without crossing a line?
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Not much in my opinion.
Clean-up, prep work, preliminary sanding and such.

Definitely not making knives as has been the case.
 
I posted this information in a previous thread. The statements do not represent my personal feelings on this subject only what I have knowledge of because I was on the committee to write the Guild Show rules.

I worked with the Knifemakers Guild committee when they were trying to decide what was acceptable when describing a "custom knife". At the time these were the rulings:

-Damascus is a raw material.
-Parts that are made for other applications such as screws, pins, bushings, etc. are also viewed as raw materials.
-Contracted heat-treating is traditional and is acceptable.

-Contracted parts such as laser cutting and blade grinding are not acceptable at the Knifemakers Guild Show. If the maker operates the equipment himself it is acceptable. (Many makers own and operate their own CNC equipment)
-Hired help doing knife operations in their shop is not acceptable for knives shown at the Knifemakers Guild Show.

I personally hope the Knifemakers Guild opens up the show to makers showing knives made by all methods. I am in favor full disclosure about construction methods and hope to see Bob Terzuola and others that use other similar and alternative methods at the Guild show in the near future.

I feel like the market will weed out makers that misrepresent their work and reward those with innovative style and quality products.

Daniel
 
"Contracted parts such as laser cutting and blade grinding are not acceptable at the Knifemakers Guild Show. If the maker operates the equipment himself it is acceptable. (Many makers own and operate their own CNC equipment)"


The fact that makers may use CNC equipment to blank / grind the blade makes the Guild irrelevant.

For me the essence of hand made is a blade hand ground without the use of computer aided equipment.

With these rules any Tom, Dick or Harry can be a Guild level knifemaker if he understands some basics about knives and how to program this equipment.


Either the Guild is going to stand for something or it isn't. Is it to be just a club?


520141-big.jpg


These guys are probably thinking -Ha Ha look at me I'm a knifemaker, maybe I should join the guild.
 
averageguy said:
With these rules any Tom, Dick or Harry can be a Guild level knifemaker if he understands some basics about knives and how to program this equipment.
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Your lack of knowledge concerning CNC tools and knife designs is obvious.

Try:
1 - Designing a knife
2 - Programing the equipment
3 - Make a knife that performs well
4 - Have someone buy the knife

If you can do three of the four steps you will have an informed opinion.
 
Amen Bob!

I joined the Guild in 1988. It was something I strived for ever since I started making knives in 1976. It proved to be the most anti-climactic event in my knifemaking career.

The 3 members who "judged" my knives never introduced themselves, and, they voted me in without ever picking up, or even touching, one of my knives. I was looking for a hard nosed appriasal, with careful examination, so that I might really feel I was making a high quality product. Certainly, I dould not have made perfect knives, and, I was eager to hear what I should be doing better. Never happened.

At my first or second annual meeting, I suggested to the Guild that they create literature and perhaps videos to educate customers on how to evaluate a knife. After all, we were the Guild and were making the finest knives in the world. I reasoned that if people understood how to evaluate what they were buying, they would appreciate the skill and workmanship in our products and feel confident that they were buying the highest quality. 3 years later, the committee that was supposedly working on that idea dropped it. I can draw no other conclusion than that the Guild didn't want to educate customers on how to evaluate quality.

I left the Guild when the rules were changed. Not specifically because of the rule changes, because the only rule I normally don't follow is the same one as Bob T-I have blade blanks waterjet cut by an outside supplier. Because that is the only effective and efficient way to get irregular snaped parts from sheet stock. If I wanted to take a table and sell at the Guild show, I could profile them myself, but, why?

There was a lot of petty jealousy and ill-will at the Guild meetings in my later years-At least that's my perception. Being a Guild member was costing me money and not improving my sales. No one ever bought a knife from me and said that they wouldn't have if I wasn't a Guild member. And, I got tired of roasting in Florida at the end of July.

I decided not to renew my membership. I wanted to see if anyone would contact me to find out why. I got a call from SR Johnson about 6 months later, because he had a replacement badge for me. At that time, I told him I was no longer a member. He was shocked. We had an intelligent conversation, and I requested that the Guild President contact me, and I would discuss re-joining. I had a long conversation with the President, and I expressed my concerns that the Guild needed to be more about quality and honesty than I felt it was. I asked that an application be sent to me, so that I might consider re-joining. I never received it.

These are the facts regarding my Guild membership. I am disappointed, but not bitter. I made some good friends there, and learned some valuable lessons. Mostly, that my standards and my integrity are important to my success, and I am capable of making good decisions about them without having them dictated to me. My parents taught me about the importance of honesty long ago, so that was never an issue.

One final note WRT CNC and knifemaking. Despite years of posting about what CNC does and doesn't do, it is obvious to me that more work is required, as it is obvious that there are many misconceptions. The picture posted in this thread showing a bank of CNC machines and operators is NOT showing knives being made by CNC. It is showing parts being made. I don't know what parts, or even what operation is being performed, but I am certain that no knives are coming out of those machines.

I own a very good CNC mill. I don't own an CNC blade grinder, and I don't know any makers who do. EVERY part I make on my CNC requires extensive HAND FINISHING to bring it up to the final level of fit and finish that I demand in my knives. I will also add that every operation I perform on my CNC, with the exception of my unique milled blades, could be performed on a conventional mill or a pantograph mill "by hand". Further, there are some operations that I perform on my knives that cannot be done on the CNC. A prime example of this is machining the bearing pocket in the frames of my flippers, a manual operation that I control to within .0005" This is the single most critical feature that produces the silky smooth opening in my flippers, and it is done manually.

Machines don't make the knives. Knifemakers make the knives. Machines can help make better knives, but, ultimately it is the dedication, drive and skill of the knifemaker that pulls it all together.
 
BTW, I just took another look at the CNC photo. Look at the parts on the tables. Not a knife part in sight. Sheesh!
 
Thank you Bob Terzuola for your well-written account, and for RJ for his commentary.

I applaud your decisions, and wish for an even better future--possibly in the Guild! :thumbup:

Coop
 
Dear Bob,
I would like to apologize for the statements I made in this thread. I made them without all of the correct facts being known. I thank you for setting the record straight so that any further statements made here will be done with the correct facts known.

I hope to see you post on these forums more often so that you may share your more than 20 years of knife making experience with us.

Best of luck,
Chuck Gedraitis
 
I think the arguments made by Chuck Bybee, RJj Martin and Bob Terzuola are quiet persuasive.

It makes rational sense that I can get a better quality knife, at a lower price, and better support a knife maker because they use their intellectual ability to streamline production.

Sweat equity is a nice antiquated concept, but the handmade requirements rather then help the knife maker, limit their ability to earn a living and stifles creativity.

Unless of course people want to buy knives based on goofy mystical qualities such as "soul", "exclusivity" or romantic ideal of a lone knife maker against the world kind of thing.

Maybe that's the key, there two groups the romantics and the rationalists. The guild is playing to the romantics the rationalists are walking away.
 
In the picture above parts are being made using CNC equipment. It is meant to be a representation of CNC manufacturing.

For me, if a blade is ground by a CNC machine the resulting knife is not a custom but merely a production piece.
Computer aided machining is exactly that - not handmade.

When we accept CNC as custom then there really is little distinction between custom and production. My logic follows.

1. If one accepts that Handmade represents the potentially highest order - we all know there are lesser quality handmades. These potentially represent the highest level of knife making skill and craftsmanship.

2. Custom - the second order - at least one machine process.

3. Production - the third order but potentially the most technically correct /
state of the art. The use of various machines.

With increasingly little or meaningless difference between 2. and 3.



The grinding of the blade is the one area that separates a maker from someone who assembles kits. The one area that separates handmade from production. The one area in my opinion that differentiates skill between makers. And. the one thing that makes me not a maker. If I lovingly finish and handle a CNC blade produced to my specification
or a blade by Engnath (which I have done) - does that make me a custom maker. Probably not.

What I object to is the substitution of a brain - skill, and talent for a microprocessor.
Any production facility that can afford and make use of CNC machines does so. These machines are efficient and don't make mistakes. They eliminate the handmade errors and allow for a less skilled workforce.

It is my opinion that a custom maker is defined by his grinding ability and not his programing ability or his ability to hire a competent CNC operator.
By relaxing the definition of custom it becomes increasingly difficult to differentiate between custom and production knives. And, would seem to be a minimizing of the knifemaking art.

The Guild should focus on maintaining high standards and traditional Handmade craftsmanship.

As far as I'm concerned there are only two categories of knives, Handmade and mid-tech / production. And the latter don't strike me as customs.

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Pictures of a real knifemaker in action - Mel Pardue in this case.
 
Striper28: You were smart to apologize to Bob T. Now I would like to address the remained of the desparaging remards you made in your second post:


If I come to a show with 30 knives, it is because I made 30 knives. Maybe I work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. Maybe I am just a better knifemaker than the guy who can only turn out 4 knives. Maybe not. How many knives I bring to a show has no bearing on the QUALITY of the knives. As to how my production techniques factor into the price of my knives, well, that is for the customer to decide. If I sell 30 knives to customers who understand how I build them, (and ALL my customers understand this)then, it's obvious to me that the customers are happy with my quality and my price.

Secondly, dealers appear to be delighted to have high quality knives that function properly that they can obtain in sufficient quantity to satisfy their customer's demands. Obviously, the customers are happy with the knives.

I have never taken a public shot at you, or your work. Why would I? You make one of a kind knives, and that's fine. I take a different approach, and, that's fine, too. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion on knives, knifemakers and their methods. However, as far as your forum reaponses are concerned, I will recommend to you that you take stock in the old adage we all learned in kindergarten "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all"
 
Each person has can make up their own mind about what it is that is important to them in the decision making process as to what knives they are going to purchase. Dave's criteria are different than mine. It's got nothing to do with romance or being rational. There is nothing irrational about wanting a knife made by hand. There is also nothing romantic about it. All it is, is a personal choice.

It doesn't matter how knives are made, as long as the buyers know what they are getting. As far as the Guild is concerned, the directors have to decide how much latitude to give to the definition of a custom knife. I personally don't think they can just say anything goes just so that they can appeal to everybody.
 
Averageguy: I understand your chain of thought. I do agree that the knifemaker should be grinding the blade. I grind mine freehand, without the use of jigs. I do use a workrest, but that is to support my hands, not the blade.

And, you might be interested to know, that, only about 3 out of 10 blades I rough machine on the CNC are accurate enough to finish out as striated or faceted blades. The rest must be ground out to IMPROVE their accuracy and symmetry. There is no CNC mill I am aware of that can consistently machine a blade bevel more accurately than I can grind it.
 
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