Knives and marketing(mostly for the newbies)

[Kohai999]

A lot of what I read in the General discussion forums seems to concern marketing of knives, and other objects of interest, and expectations and realizations of those expectations.

Marketing is an extremely important portion of making knives, facilitating the manufacture of a knife ,through to the sale of the knife to the end user.

Some marketing is brash and bold, a la' Cold Steel and Lynn Thompson's, shall we say, unique approach.

Some marketing is very "user friendly" shall we say, maybe like Buck or Spyderco. What could make more sense, or be less sheeple threatening than a slogan like "All of God's creatures have knives"?

The problem with marketing, is that it ties a lot to identity of the end user, and can be confusing in its' own right.

When Lynn started making the tanto, he contracted with Buck to make the blades. That was a good move, because it would yield a quality product. Then he made a bad move, and started running ads, mentioning features of the tanto like "armor piercing", which made the knives look less like good defensive weapons, and more like thuggish weapons for offensive use, which Buck took offense to, and stopped making the tanto blades for CS.

FWIW, Bob Lum designed the first Americanized tanto, which he adapted from an armor piercing aikuchi from the medieval Japan period. He has never gotten very much credit for this, but it is the truth. Lynn adapted the design to manufacturing and ran with it, and the rest is history

Until you buy and use a knife for a long period of time, you never really know if it works for your purposes.

Then Hollywood gets mixed up into it, and everything becomes REALLY confusing.

The Rambo Series of knives by Gil Hibben by United Cutlery is probably the most sold, not regularly used model of knife in the history of production knives. Seriously, even though they look cool, how many people use the sawback spine on a knife? Carrying a commando wire saw, or even a hacksaw blade in your kit bag seems to make so much more sense. This being said, I will bet that the #1 knife sold by TOPS is the Wilderness Tracker.

It makes a lot of people feel like Rambo, to hold one, and imagine adventures and exotic locations, and if you are serving up a Big Mac, working the daily grind, with mouths at home to feed, you can use all the escapist thoughts your mind can hold.

I guess the thing that bothers me, and my point is that what you are using the knife for and what you expect from it should be rooted in as much reality as you can stand.
All the new steels are really cool, and it is always a good thing to want something better, but the 420 mod that Buck uses is not a horrible steel, and has an excellent heat treat, and works for most of the uses that someone can come up with. When I was in the Navy, the bosun's mates used Buck 110's with reshaping of the tips to chisel points, because that is what they had access to, and used. And they worked fine. It does not mean that there were not better knives out there, it means that this is what most of them used, could afford, and that made sense

I have carried a Benchmade 710 as my primary blade for over 5 years. It has been used and abused, even by most standards here on the BladeForums, and has not let me down. I purchased it because Bill McHenry and Jason Williams are friends, and for that matter, so is Les DeAsis, and I wanted to support them. I have found it to be the perfect EDC knife for me, because it fits the bill, not because of any hype surrounding it. Although there can be plenty of hype.

I also EDC a Victorinox Climber, a modified Benchmade model B, a Bill Ruple 2 blade trapper, a Chuck Gedraitis single blade slip joint in damascus, and a Benchmade auto Benchmite. That is right, I carry 6 knives, and I use about 3 of them every day. My wife thinks it is a bit excessive, and it may be, but works for my uses

My point in this ramble is that if you have an idea of what you want, try to handle it at the store or gun show, and ask yourself what you need it to do. Research the steels and materials, and see if that knife works for you. It really does not matter if an engineer designed the knife, or a cowboy, or a SEAL, it matters mostly that it works for you.

Part of the process that is most fun is figuring out what you really want and THEN buying it. Regret is what happens when you buy what you THINK you need, getting caught up in all the hype, and then have something that does not work the way that you wanted it to.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[jvan]

Steven, I found your post to be very interesting and illuminating. You raise several excellent points regarding marketing versus usage as it pertains to knives.

While being new to this forum I have carried knives for over fifty years. I've owned and gotten rid of a few automatics, while they were appealing at the time I didn't like a knife that I couldn't openly use without fear of causing alarm to those around me. I have carried knives from Case, Buck, Benchmade, and others.

I currently EDC a small SAK Executive (can't get along without the toothpick) and a Kershaw Leek, being a gadget freak the AO feature appealed to me and I grew to like and appreciate it over time.

I read so many posts regarding the self defence and speed-of-opening aspects of knives and wonder what what I am missing out on.

After reading your post I tried to review my knife (Leek) usage yesterday and came up with the following list:

I sliced up some potatoes for my breakfast.
I opened my mail at noon.
I cut up some lemons and oranges for a batch of Sangria.
I cut open the chicken breasts on the grill to verify that they were done.
While cooking the chicken I did some finishing up on a walking stick for my grand daughter.

That's about as exciting as my daily knife usage gets. While the Leek opens quickly another ten seconds would have made no difference in any of my tasks. Granted I live in a medium size town in the Midwest where coming under attack is really not a worry so the SD aspect of knives and opening speed is not a necessity.

It would be refreshing to be able to see an ad for a knife extolling its ability to peel and cut up an apple for a child.

 

[Deadhead Archer]

Awesome post + read, thanks STeven Garsson! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

[Ebbtide]

Well said.

 

[tarmix101]

My point in this ramble is that if you have an idea of what you want, try to handle it at the store or gun show, and ask yourself what you need it to do. Research the steels and materials, and see if that knife works for you. It really does not matter if an engineer designed the knife, or a cowboy, or a SEAL, it matters mostly that it works for you.

Part of the process that is most fun is figuring out what you really want and THEN buying it. Regret is what happens when you buy what you THINK you need, getting caught up in all the hype, and then have something that does not work the way that you wanted it to.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Good points and very well said:thumbup:

 

[Walking Man]

Seriously, even though they look cool, how many people use the sawback spine on a knife?

I do! This is almost like asking who likes serrated edges. They can come in very, very useful while camping, out in the woods, or anywhere a saw will do the job faster than a knife.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Part of the process that is most fun is figuring out what you really want and THEN buying it. Regret is what happens when you buy what you THINK you need, getting caught up in all the hype, and then have something that does not work the way that you wanted it to.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

We might have had our differences, but Steven, this has to be one of the most inspiring posts I have ever read on BF. I wish I would have sat down and really thought out my collection goals when I first started buying knives. Everyone learns the hard way, thankfully my road hasn't been as hard due to the knowledge of members like Steven and others on this site. Thank you!

 

[ronsec]

Steven - a well thought out & well said post! :thumbup:

 

[3Guardsmen]

Steven,
Awesome post as usual. You do a great service to the newer knife enthusiasts (and some of the older ones as well). Thank you!

Best wishes,
3G

 

[GoodGuy]

Agreed.... but, everyone should "enjoy" the experience of purchasing at least a few disappointing knives. That's part of the fun, isn't it?

 

[Danbo]

Pshaaw! I think Steven is full of worm castings!


Seriously, he makes a lot of good points.

 

[Nordic Viking]

It makes a lot of people feel like Rambo, to hold one, and imagine adventures and exotic locations, and if you are serving up a Big Mac, working the daily grind, with mouths at home to feed, you can use all the escapist thoughts your mind can hold.

No need to get personal dude
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Seriously though, a well written post. :thumbup:

 

[not2sharp]

Steven,

Excellent post.

My point in this ramble is that if you have an idea of what you want, try to handle it at the store or gun show, and ask yourself what you need it to do. Research the steels and materials, and see if that knife works for you. It really does not matter if an engineer designed the knife, or a cowboy, or a SEAL, it matters mostly that it works for you.

This is right on the money. One of the key elements that is often missing from the discussion is the user's relative skill and experience. There are probably people out there who can process a bull moose faster and better with a chunk of raw obsidian, then I could do with a truck load of knives and power tools. I would still be trying to discover which chunks are edible, while the other guy is wearing a new moose fur and collecting his dried and salted meat. That is not a knock on us; it is a realization that modern life seldom affords us the luxury of solid decades of knife using mistakes from which to garnish real experience.

n2s

 

[DGG]

Good post.

I am very hesitent to recommend a knife to someone who hasn't handled it. They all look good in the pictures.

I think if you can peel and cutup a 50 pound sack of potatoes with your knife without having to sharpen it and without your hand cramping up then you have a winner.

 

[Joe-Dirt]

What a great post and great thoughts.

It's nice to see and hear stuff that's not all "hype" these days.

Thanks :thumbup:

 

[Vivi]

I agree with a lot of what's been said here.

The Self Defense aspects of edge-tools never appealed to me. I've never once been threatened ina way where I've felt the need to use a weapon and something like a knife or gun would always be a last resort to me. Not something I'd flash around hoping to scare someone off.

There is tons of hype surrounding new technologies. I've found a 10$ Minibuck with 420hc steel can do quite a bit, much less something in S30V. I'm content with the edge holding of AUS8 and I can stand to use FRN rather than G10 any day.

New technologies have brought us some practical items, such as one-handed opening and pocket clips. This is convenient simply when using the knife, but like you said, reaching into your pocket and using two hands to open a slipjoint generally doesn't matter. I like the clip not so much for the speed of deploying my knife, but it makes carrying it more comfortable for me.

I EDC a Delica, a SAK Handyman, CRKT M18 and now a Spyderco Native. Sometimes it's just a Delica, or that and a SAK, but 99% of the time I simply drop a SAK in my pocket and I'm good to go. I like my Spydercos, but a SAK fits the bill for most everything I need a knife for, as well as giving me a wide-variety of other tools to utilize. For instance, I can use the philips screwdriver to tighten my skateboard when I'm out skating, and having a saw can be handy in the woods.

Like you said, there are a world of wonderful knives out there, but consider what you use them for and what knife would fit these uses the best. I stick to thinner blades myself because that's what works for me. That doesn't mean the Buck / Strider's haven't caught my eye, it just means I can take my time getting them because I have more practical choices for my needs, like the VIC Spartan / Classic two pack for 20$ I saw at Target. Either one of those knives would see more use than the Buck Strider.

 

[powernoodle]

I don't "need" any more knives just like I don't need any more flashlights (see the list of lights here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=87150).

My knife and flashlight buying now days is governed by what will best give me a good fix when I'm jonesing for something to buy. Am waiting on a G10 Leek right now, which about the last thing I need, but I get a good buzz by hitting the "submit offer" link on ebay and/or walking in the package from the mailbox. Marketing and/or peer pressure (if it can be called that here) make me want certain knives too, like a Hog, a Rat, a Sebbie or a Strider. I have no doubt that they are great knives, and someday they'll probably be added to my stash too, but I truly have no real need for anything more than a Delica.

At least I recognize the nature of my addiction.

I'm still searching for the best EDC folder and light, and see no end in sight.

cheers!

 

[Ilovetoolsteel]

A lot of what I read in the General discussion forums seems to concern marketing of knives, and other objects of interest, and expectations and realizations of those expectations.
Marketing is an extremely important portion of making knives, facilitating the manufacture of a knife ,through to the sale of the knife to the end user.

What you fail to recognise is that all marketing is based on the concept of deceiving the consumer. Convincing the customer he is getting more than what he is paying for, For instance, that the materials used are superior when in fact they are inadequate.
Do you know why there are no commercials for bananas on tv? because everybody knows bananas are good for them, everybody knows bananas are delicious, everybody knows bananas are inexpensive. everybody knows kids like bananas. But that is only half of the story. Bananas aren't made of inferior materials, they don't contain things you don't want or need, they aren't subject to dubious cost saving "improvements" You don't have to spin anything to sell bananas The only advertising the people who sell bananas do it to try to get people to eat more of them.

The problem with marketing, is that it ties a lot to identity of the end user, and can be confusing in its' own right.

The problem is marketing is based on deception, Deception is, by it's very definition, confusing

The Rambo Series of knives by Gil Hibben by United Cutlery is probably the most sold, not regularly used model of knife in the history of production knives.

OT Gill Hibben only designed one of the rambo knives, Jimmy Lile designed the first two

All the new steels are really cool, and it is always a good thing to want something better, but the 420 mod that Buck uses is not a horrible steel, and has an excellent heat treat, and works for most of the uses that someone can come up with.

You see there's where you have been purposely deceived by Bucks marketing, Buck has worked very hard to get this dogma accepted as fact. However, When pressed Buck will tell you the reason they switched to 420hc steel was not because 420hc is a good steel and the heat treat makes it better, But They switched because of ease of manufacture. You can blank more blades before having to pull the dies. The steel shears cleaner so there is less burr on the lock notch eliminating the lock fitting opperation on knives like the 110. Nowhere in Bucks advertising or product literature will they tell you any of this. All they will tell you is their heat treat makes it a superior steel. They will refer to 420hc with it's .45% carbon content as a "High carbon steel" even though steel manufacturers and the AISI universally consider .50% carbon as the threshold for being called "high carbon" They call it "high carbon stainless" despite the fact that aside from plain 420 and 420j2 every other hardenable stainless has a higher carbon content than 420hc

When you use good materials you don't have to make up stories about the materials quality. You don't have to hide behind marketing.

 

[Ebbtide]

Sorry, but no. The purpose of marketing is not to decieve.
It is to sell product.
It is to gain market share.
It is to brand the product with the company.
The purpose of marketing is to fulfill a consumer's percieved need.

As far as your Buck example above, only the knifeknuts would percieve Buck's 420HC as inferior.
The majority of sales go to everyday Joes that need a knife and recognize the Buck name (branding/marketing) and the steel will be plenty good for them.

This comes from a guy with 30 years in 'the ad game'

 

[Kohai999]

What you fail to recognise is that all marketing is based on the concept of deceiving the consumer. Convincing the customer he is getting more than what he is paying for, For instance, that the materials used are superior when in fact they are inadequate.
Do you know why there are no commercials for bananas on tv? because everybody knows bananas are good for them, everybody knows bananas are delicious, everybody knows bananas are inexpensive. everybody knows kids like bananas. But that is only half of the story. Bananas aren't made of inferior materials, they don't contain things you don't want or need, they aren't subject to dubious cost saving "improvements" You don't have to spin anything to sell bananas The only advertising the people who sell bananas do it to try to get people to eat more of them.

The problem is marketing is based on deception, Deception is, by it's very definition, confusing

Ummm, I don't know what you do for a living, but I am the head designer, licensing coordinator and new product development coordinator for a company that manufactures motorcycle apparel. I have written copy for 4 catalogs, and endless product supplements, as well as a magazine article for Tactical Knives. I worked at GT Knives, and Buck knives as well for 2 months before being "let go" due to a major personality conflict with my manager. I intimately understand the concept of marketing from the inside, and practice it on a regular basis.

My entire point was built around the concept that marketing is hype, not necessarily deceiptful, but certainly designed to sway a person into a purchasing decision.

OT Gill Hibben only designed one of the rambo knives, Jimmy Lile designed the first two

The point still stands. Very much limited use knives that are mass produced for over 20 years, are still readily selling. Why? Did you know that every time that there is a Rambo marathon on television, there is a swell in the sales of the UC Rambo knives?

You see there's where you have been purposely deceived by Bucks marketing, Buck has worked very hard to get this dogma accepted as fact. However, When pressed Buck will tell you the reason they switched to 420hc steel was not because 420hc is a good steel and the heat treat makes it better, But They switched because of ease of manufacture. You can blank more blades before having to pull the dies. The steel shears cleaner so there is less burr on the lock notch eliminating the lock fitting opperation on knives like the 110.

I know all that, (see above) I never said that 420 was great, or even good, steel. I said it was not horrible. If you love tool steel, and that is what you are interested in, than you will probably find 420 to be horrible steel, but in the Navy, the bosuns' guys were more interested in corrosion resistance, and blades not snapping than edge retention. The 110 served well for that purpose.

When you use good materials you don't have to make up stories about the materials quality. You don't have to hide behind marketing.

Plenty of great companies using top quality materials use marketing to "kick it up a notch". The list would be too long to mention.

BTW, if there was a documentary shown about the working conditions of the people who harvest bananas, there would probably a fair amount of banana marketing as a counterpoint.

I remember in high school being shown a movie where a rancher was shooting prairie dogs with an AR-15. The film was shot so that there were closeups of prairie dogs exploding in slow motion. It was years before I realized that this was propaganda, and that movies made of cows breaking their legs in prairie dog holes, slow motion, were not likely to be forthcoming.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson