knives and selfbow

Briarbrow said:
What a really nice osage spine tester you whittled sadiejane ;)


while I 'm sure you have your own plan; I would like to encourage you to make the next one shorter. 62-63 n to n. unless you want shorter still:)
Click to expand...

whats the reasoning behind shorter?
 
IME 68" is approaching the upper limit of practical hunting bow, but much depends on environment, methods, and all that, not to mention your own tastes and desires.

It doesn't seem like much but often a few inches can make a big difference. Which can go both ways, I guess. A 60 inch self bow (that lasts)for 28inch draw is worth a pat on the back; while 62 + is quite doable

On the other hand if you are stuck to making/ using rigid handles I fell less sure about minimum lengths
 
That looks really great! congrats on your bow..I want to try that someday...
 
Beautiful job on the bow, Sadiejane! From what I can see in the photo, it is tillered very well with nice all-around proportions. Great job! :thumbup:

I have constructed many hundreds of osage orange bows over the years, from traditional laminated, to primitive self and backed. I was fortunate to have learned my primitive bow building skills under John Strunk many years ago (John was one of the authors of The Traditional Bowyer's Bible).

With regards to the length of the self osage bow (as mentioned by someone else); the *narrow* D-shaped (English) or, American flat limb is going to work best in the longer lengths for most adult archers. Because of my long draw length, I prefer to use a 68" self longbow when hunting. If using a wider flat limbed Native American style flatbow for hunting, I will bring that length down to around 62" or 64". If I decide to sinew back the bow, I can make it slightly shorter yet. I have taken plenty of game (deer, elk, game birds mostly) with the 68" longbow and find no issues with the longer limbs in most environments that I choose to hunt here in the West.

Long *narrow* limbs usually mean *shooting stability* (I teach new archers on long limbed bows). Long *wide* limbs usually make for a bow that is slow with plenty of hand-shock. Like everything else, finding that compromise in durability and performance can sometimes be tricky for the new bowyer. "experience" (includes plenty of failures) is ones best teacher here. A new bowyer, with developing skills, will most always want to start with a longer limbed bow. Generally speaking, the shorter the bow is going to be, the less manufacturing mistakes that bow will tolerate (think about the tillering process).

Now that you have done well with the osage, you need to try a yew wood bow next! Yew is very snappy, light weight, sometimes full of character like osage, and makes the very best shooting longbows out there. :)
 
sadiejane a graceful beauty & osage is certainly the best american wood to use. it taxes the best of patience to accomplish this as one slice or erring cut & the whole project is naught.45 lbs in the hand of an accurate archer is enough for the largest american deer. we appreciate the bow but appreciate the craftsperson even more.
dennis
 
thanks ya'll
really do appreciate your input
they fella who's been teaching me bow making has been making osage bows(he's only ever used osage, cept for one other that broke shortly after finishing it up. sorry have forgotten what wood he said. he's of the opinion its works best for him-also he does not hunt, says he did enough of that in vietnam)
anyways he's been building osage self bows for about 12 years.
and he's still learning. we are all trying to learn together. and thats why i post things here and read here along with other forums(paleoplanet, gon, bushcraft usa)also read lots of books and other info online, watch vids etc. as with any craft its always a learning process and im just beginning this road.
being a pnw native, of course i really hanker to build a yew bow. the staves are very expensive. and so far ive not found a local source. not gonna go out and start hacking yews myself.
so the next bow will be osage. and i will most likely try to take it a bit differently. very intrigued with sinew backing. wayne and i have discussed both of us backing our next bow. learn together as we go. i certainly have much to learn, and but am enjoying it tremendously.
once again i appreciate all yr words, encouragement and suggestions.
thanks
 
Reading PP forum nearly got me to start up again 3 or 4 years ago. I even started making a bow only to pass it along to a chap who needed a head start.
That is a great place to learn.

I'm shooting in the techno-trad style these days. It is fun to just shoot; but I miss the holistic completed feeling of having made it all myself...I think I've found a black locust that needs to be liberated from its woody home:yawn:

I guess Im only responding because I'm so surprised you have osage in the PCN. I've never been there, looks, sounds like a great area to be, but osage too?

I will add that, seems to me, sinew on osage is notalotta necessary work. It is perhaps a rescue measure, but if you are going add the extra work, and all that waiting; why not start with a core that will truly benefit?

You wouldn't want to use osage for a sapwood backed ELB, just to make an ELB
 
sorry if i was unclear
no there isnt osage in the pnw
unless folks planted
i reckon it would grow there if you liked
born and raised in the pnw
left
returned
left
returned...

ok tell me more if ya will.
its understood sinew backing can "fix" problems
but i thought that many plains natives backed osage bows
of course this osage one is my first bow
so im still just barely beginning to learn and understand bows
 
I'm not really an expert on Plains Indians. I understand there was quite a range between various groups; Way north and way south. In the North is where you see all those wild composites, antler, horn, sinew, etc. Places where good wood for short horse bows is scarce.

If osage was available all that extra work would never had been necessary.

self osage will hold reflex, recurves with dry heat bending if that's important. All that would have been necessary with their horse archery was to make the self bow just a little longer. 46, 50 inches if the draw length was 22-24 inch.

I would be quite surprised to see there was wide spread use of composite bows on the southern plains
 
I don't have the time or desire here in this post to write an article on the sinew backed bow, but here are a few thoughts on the backed bow that come to mind.

Lets stick with osage for a moment:

1. Sinew backing the osage bow will allow an archer to use a shorter bow that otherwise would be under excessive stress (if not backed) given the archers draw length.

2. If the construction and design of the osage bow is proper, sinew backing will add much more speed and power to the bow (more could be written about this). I have built enough of these backed osage bows to know the results possible in performance (not to mention the scores of backed osage bows that I have watched my students make).

3. Sinew (sometimes called "Indian fiberglass") backing a shorter osage bow (if properly done) will prevent speed-robbing "string follow." After a time, most self bows will follow the string losing weight and speed. This is the nature of wood...even with a perfect tiller.

4. Sinew backing a questionable stave (full of knots, poor grain structure, etc.) can make that stave very serviceable.

The list could go on...

A couple of disadvantages of the sinew backed bow:

1. Sinew backing ANY bow will easily double the effort and time of the bow construction. Takes me weeks from start to finish (sinew must cure between layers and before final tillering).

2. Sinew and hide glue are VERY sensitive to moisture. The sinew backing can be sealed with a variety of modern and primitive finishes, waxes, etc. I have often used snake or fish skin to seal the sinew with great success (they tolerated rainy Southwest Alaska just fine).

The most impressive bow that I ever constructed, and still hunt with (and I own dozens), was cut from an old osage tree planted in the state of Oregon. The stave came from an upper limb on that tree and was seasoned for almost three years. I steamed a backset in the limbs, added three layers of sinew consisting of buffalo, elk, moose (all harvested by me), and horn tips. After being shot thousands of times over the years, the little 54#, 60" sinew backed osage bow still has a full 3" of backset and shoots as fast as a bow 20 pounds heavier. The little bow is a real speed demon with excellent stability and no string pinch at my draw length. Without the sinew backing on this bow, its performance would be nothing like it is.

Yew wood: I harvest yew wood in my area and often trade it for osage with some friends in Texas and Oklahoma. Before the anti-cancer drug, Taxol (extract from the bark of the yew) was synthesized, I couldn't purchase a permit to cut yew in my old haunts for a couple of years. Vine maple then became my wood of choice in this area of the PNW. Now that the drug comes from another source, we are able to cut yew again. When cutting yew, learn to "read the bark" on the tree to prevent needlessly cutting down a twisted, less-than-perfect tree. One should be VERY particular when cutting down this precious wood source (Oregon has the best yew wood in the world). BTW, it is a good idea to back a yew wood bow that will be used for hunting. Though the white sap wood is a good natural backing to the heart wood, it dents and damages easily. I back my yew wood bows most often with rawhide (clarified). I have also backed them with cherry bark, bamboo, skins, etc. The downside of using rawhide on the yew bow is the added weight that can slow the limbs down. It takes some skill to get it just thick enough and no more.

Just a short note on Native American sinew backed bows; I have inspected (in collections and museums) sinew backed bows from the Pacific Northwest, Northeast, Southwest, South, from one end of the country to the other, including Alaska and Canada. They were very rare to non-existent in many tribes, certainly common with the horse tribes on the plains, and always a highly prized trade item. I held and carefully inspected a very well made sinew backed bow (and arrows) made by Ishi of the california Yahi tribe. It appears where the bows were very long, sinew backing was not needed (adds only weight on long limbs). The short self bows were either made wide for durability or, the short bow was sinew backed to prevent breakage and increase performance. Too, exceptions to every rule are to be found out there with the Native American bows with regards to construction methods, materials, and quality.
 
Dannyboy Leather said:
I don't have the time or desire here in this post to write an article on the sinew backed bow, but here are a few thoughts on the backed bow that come to mind.

Lets stick with osage for a moment:

1. Sinew backing the osage bow will allow an archer to use a shorter bow that otherwise would be under excessive stress (if not backed) given the archers draw length.

2. If the construction and design of the osage bow is proper, sinew backing will add much more speed and power to the bow (more could be written about this). I have built enough of these backed osage bows to know the results possible in performance (not to mention the scores of backed osage bows that I have watched my students make).

3. Sinew (sometimes called "Indian fiberglass") backing a shorter osage bow (if properly done) will prevent speed-robbing "string follow." After a time, most self bows will follow the string losing weight and speed. This is the nature of wood...even with a perfect tiller.

4. Sinew backing a questionable stave (full of knots, poor grain structure, etc.) can make that stave very serviceable.

The list could go on...

A couple of disadvantages of the sinew backed bow:

1. Sinew backing ANY bow will easily double the effort and time of the bow construction. Takes me weeks from start to finish (sinew must cure between layers and before final tillering).

2. Sinew and hide glue are VERY sensitive to moisture. The sinew backing can be sealed with a variety of modern and primitive finishes, waxes, etc. I have often used snake or fish skin to seal the sinew with great success (they tolerated rainy Southwest Alaska just fine).

The most impressive bow that I ever constructed, and still hunt with (and I own dozens), was cut from an old osage tree planted in the state of Oregon. The stave came from an upper limb on that tree and was seasoned for almost three years. I steamed a backset in the limbs, added three layers of sinew consisting of buffalo, elk, moose (all harvested by me), and horn tips. After being shot thousands of times over the years, the little 54#, 60" sinew backed osage bow still has a full 3" of backset and shoots as fast as a bow 20 pounds heavier. The little bow is a real speed demon with excellent stability and no string pinch at my draw length. Without the sinew backing on this bow, its performance would be nothing like it is.

Yew wood: I harvest yew wood in my area and often trade it for osage with some friends in Texas and Oklahoma. Before the anti-cancer drug, Taxol (extract from the bark of the yew) was synthesized, I couldn't purchase a permit to cut yew in my old haunts for a couple of years. Vine maple then became my wood of choice in this area of the PNW. Now that the drug comes from another source, we are able to cut yew again. When cutting yew, learn to "read the bark" on the tree to prevent needlessly cutting down a twisted, less-than-perfect tree. One should be VERY particular when cutting down this precious wood source (Oregon has the best yew wood in the world). BTW, it is a good idea to back a yew wood bow that will be used for hunting. Though the white sap wood is a good natural backing to the heart wood, it dents and damages easily. I back my yew wood bows most often with rawhide (clarified). I have also backed them with cherry bark, bamboo, skins, etc. The downside of using rawhide on the yew bow is the added weight that can slow the limbs down. It takes some skill to get it just thick enough and no more.

Just a short note on Native American sinew backed bows; I have inspected (in collections and museums) sinew backed bows from the Pacific Northwest, Northeast, Southwest, South, from one end of the country to the other, including Alaska and Canada. They were very rare to non-existent in many tribes, certainly common with the horse tribes on the plains, and always a highly prized trade item. I held and carefully inspected a very well made sinew backed bow (and arrows) made by Ishi of the california Yahi tribe. It appears where the bows were very long, sinew backing was not needed (adds only weight on long limbs). The short self bows were either made wide for durability or, the short bow was sinew backed to prevent breakage and increase performance. Too, exceptions to every rule are to be found out there with the Native American bows with regards to construction methods, materials, and quality.
Click to expand...

Some things for you to consider Danny: How is it that sinew only adds weight to longer limbs yet is somehow transformed into a power glass material at 60 inch?
How many sinew backed osage bows did you examine?
How can you determine sinew is making a "better" with your students when there is no way to compare that individual stave made into a different bow- if sinew is making the bow more powerful then you have only removed material and added a different material in its place-if you want a more powerful bow-make a more powerful bow. If you want to add speed and cast recurve the tips.

I am not a teacher, nor have I made hundreds of bows but I do have sorta intimate knowledge of how to use wood. Not all the wood in an individual log or bord is the same. as an example: Many times I've recycled a tight grained fir board into shafts. You might think they would all be of similar weight and spine but no.

I apologize for derailing your thread SJ
 
no, briarbow, this is great information. really appreciated.
and tho ive never seen an osage orange tree in oregon that i recall
makes sense that someone would plant em
and that theyd grow just fine, even thrive

as for the backing info
what dannyboy shared is similar to what i have read
ok now im even more intrigued
and determined to create one
thanks!
 
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As long as you are more intrigued and determined then I retract my apology.:p

I agree with most of what Danny says as well -in general.

see ya next week
 
Some things for you to consider Danny: How is it that sinew only adds weight to longer limbs yet is somehow transformed into a power glass material at 60 inch?
Click to expand...

I have been considering all things about the bow since I constructed my first one almost 50 years ago as a young lad. Though that first bow was very crude compared with my bows today, it was powerful enough to firmly stick a homemade arrow in the side of my fathers new wood siding job on the house! Needless to say, he quickly turned my new longbow into firewood. After that unfortunate episode in my early bowyer's craft, I was even more determined to make faster, more powerful bows and, avoid shooting my bows around the house!

Sinew backing is about tension. Where more tension can be placed on the elastic sinew, the more the sinew becomes involved with the bow. The longer the bow, the less the limbs are stressed, the less the sinew stretches, the less performance one can gain from the sinew. Though it might provide durability to those longer limbs, the shooting performance is just not there. Sinew backing is best on the shorter, highly stressed bow, where it can actually impart that greatly appreciated tension. As mentioned before, it also minimizes or reduces string follow on that shorter bow and, prevents breakage.

How can you determine sinew is making a "better" with your students when there is no way to compare that individual stave made into a different bow- if sinew is making the bow more powerful then you have only removed material and added a different material in its place-if you want a more powerful bow-make a more powerful bow. If you want to add speed and cast recurve the tips.
Click to expand...

I (and many other bowyer's) have made shorter bows from side-by-side staves. One was sinew backed, the other became a self bow. Both tillered at the same weight. Most always, the sinew backed bow was the benefactor of both speed and cast. Like all things in nature (which wood is a part of), there are exceptions and I avoid being too dogmatic about a single doctrine as it applies to bow building. In the shorter bows, adding sinew backing can also improve the performance of recurved tips, reflex/deflex limbs, etc (that "tension" thing again). It certainly adds durability and protection to the bow back.

I do not back all of my bows as I find it is just not necessary on many styles of bows. I have hunted with Jay Massey (now deceased), the author of The Bowyer's Craft, and The Book of Primitive Archery. Jay's favorite bow for hunting Alaska was always made of osage with a sinew backing (he did use homemade laminated fiberglass bows too). The performance of his sinew backed bows spoke for themselves and I could clearly see why he preferred them when hunting big game. I also took a class many years ago under Jim Hamm, author of Bows & Arrows Of The Native Americans. Jim had a real affection for the short, sinew backed bow, and sorting through his collection of high performance bows of Native American design, I began to clearly understand the real benefit of using sinew backing in the shorter bows.
 
How many sinew backed osage bows did you examine?
Click to expand...

Looks like I missed a question here. :)

The Native American sinew backed bows that most interest me are the ones found or collected in my general area of the country. I have seen (hands on) several Nez Perce and Crow (Idaho, Oregon and Montana), the Yana/Yahi (California) juniper variety, Modoc (northern California, southern Oregon), Lakotah (further east from my area), and many examples from a large number of tribes in the Columbia River Basin. In addition to a number of museum visits around the country inspecting archery equipment, I had the privilege to be given a personal tour through the Pope and Young Club museum by its founder, Glenn St. Charles. Glenn was handing me bows, arrows, quivers, stone points, faster than I could put them down. Yes, many of these bows from across the country were sinew backed or sinew repaired.
 
Briarbrow said:
IME 68" is approaching the upper limit of practical hunting bow, but much depends on environment, methods, and all that, not to mention your own tastes and desires.

It doesn't seem like much but often a few inches can make a big difference. Which can go both ways, I guess. A 60 inch self bow (that lasts)for 28inch draw is worth a pat on the back; while 62 + is quite doable

On the other hand if you are stuck to making/ using rigid handles I fell less sure about minimum lengths
Click to expand...

im not stuck with making any sorta bow
have only made one
and really wanna learn all i can
i have good access to osage orange so that makes some of the decision for me
other than that....
id love to get my hands on a yew stave but simply cant afford one at present
and may very well attempt a shorter bow this time round.
shot this bow for the first time yesterday and like it
as for hunting
yup there is lots to consider. the only other bow i have at present(well except for a couple of vintage recurves im just not so much into...)
is a martin stick one of my brothers bought for me
its about 65" shoots 40# @ 28
its certainly a different bow than the one i just made
tho i think the osage bow shoots just as well. the osage bow certainly "feels" good. but what do i know. im not an experiences archer tho ive shot bows on and off for many years. had a little glass bow when i was young my pops gave me. we used to go hunting small game. at that age i was actually perty good with that little bow. knocking down rabbits and squirrels. have never taken large game with a bow. didnt hunt at all for yrs. but im ready to do just that. still not into hunting with a rifle tho i have many yrs experience with those. still like to shoot but just not into hunting with em anymore.

would you tell me more what yr meaning about "rigid" handles?
this has been a great discussion and i really appreciate folks input.
thanks!
 
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