KNIVES AS WEAPONS... What is the problem?

S

Stiletto Raggio

Joined
Jan 29, 2000
Messages
546
I understand that due to concerns of political correctness and not wanting to have our knives banned in some stupid publicity stunt by an idiot in DC who wants to look tough on "criminal instruments" many people on the forums are wary of describing a knife as a weapon.

What I don't understand is why so many people seem opposed to even recognizing that the knife can be used as a devastatingly effective weapon under the right circumstances. I know a lot of trap shooters who would never want to kill or maim someone with their Benellis or Rugers, but they recognize the potential use as a weapon. Even objects taht are not traditionally considered weapons can do real damage, like a baseball bat or ballpoint pen.

I guess the point is that I don't understand why people seem to be opposed to the idea that a knife can be used as a weapon, and are often opposed to people being straight forward about carrying a knife for protection. Remember, there are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous people.
 
Most of the knives that are talked about on this forum are offensive/defensive weapons. I see this discussion board as a weapons discussion board and I don't have a problem with that. I am currently looking for a big lethal weapon like the sifu or pentagon elite II.
 
I agree that almost anything can be used as a weapon. However, I come to the forums not to discuss weapons, but to discuss pocket knives. I mean my kitchen knife would probably do more damage to someone than my Sebenza. Do I discuss how my kitchen knife is a great in home tactical weapon? No, I just use it to prepare food.

I think I'm weary of belaboring the point that a pocket knife CAN be used as a weapon, because I DONT WANT to think of it as such. Sure if I was being attacked, I would use whatever I was carrying to defend myself, but hope that situation never occurs. Others will disagree but I feel that "weapon" conotes agression, and the purpose of a "weapon" is to injur or mame someone (possibly an attacker). The legal ramifications of which would be enormous, but if it saves your life so be.

I don't like to carry around weapons. I carry around tools that serve utlilitarian purposes.

(I realize however, that this is all a mater of semantics, and either way, I'm carrying around a pocket full of knives)

~Mitch

------------------
My Hobby Page
 
Preach on Mitch!

------------------
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm lovin' every minute of it!"--Kramer
 
Preach on Mitch!

------------------
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm lovin' every minute of it!"--Kramer
 
I have the great misfortune of living in Kalifornia...

A few years ago I was in a gun shop and made the mistake of calling the handguns "Weapons". I was almost thrown out of the store as the owner didn't want me giving the other customers the wrong idea.
Are we now reduced to calling back white just to appease the delicate sensabilities of the masses?

I say that while it is prudent to be sensitive to the feelings of those around us it does no good to anyone if we veil the truth and speak in riddles.

"A horse is a horse of course of course"

-Mr. Ed

Ben
 
Ah, one of my favorite topics.

In my view, the people endlessly trying to appease the sheeple by talking about their "tools" versus weapons are only going to get knife carry banned faster.

Look, I'm a gun rights activist. I've been tracking this stuff all over the planet.

In England, the gun rights people tried that same "we only want guns for legitimate sporting purposes" line. They willingly agreed to complete bans on armed self defense with their guns...all guns in the home had to be stored locked and unloaded, enforced with random inspections. Really good stuff like handguns and semi-auto rifles had to be stored at a gun club. Only paper target plinking, hunting for the upper classes and a bit of pest control for farmers with side-by-side shotguns was allowed.

Sure enough, some nut took his handguns out of the gun club and killed 16 kids plus their teacher in Scotland.

Well at that point, the need for public safety was "balanced" in public opinion with the "need" for the rich to hunt and "gun nuts" to plink paper.

Do I need to tell you which side lost?

Now, in the US, armed home defense with a readily-available gun is still legal. And in 31 states, street-carry of a handgun is legal, usually with a background check and training.

So anybody who wants to ban all guns will be forced to counter-balance the legitimate, FREQUENT defensive uses, with both personal stories and raw statistics backing the pro-gun stats. See also the original Lott/Mustard report on my site.

Knives are no different. Your need to peel apples or cut rope will NOT counterbalance a percieved need for public safety. Your need to defend yourself against violent thugs on the street IS a proper counterbalance.

If the laws in your state ban "offensive knives", that's not the same thing as self defense. Truth is not lies, war is not peace, offense is not defense. We either back that truth, or we willingly get disarmed and gang-raped.

Yes, I carry defensive weaponry. I've had a need for it twice in about 18 years, with excellent results (chase-offs) each time, no legal, moral, medical or emotional aftermath. I'll willingly explain that to a cop, DA or jury if need be.

Jim
Equal Rights for CCW Home Page http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw
 
We live in a violent society. That is a fact. I respond to violence towards me with violence. Just watch the first 15 minutes of the tv news or read the newspaper headlines. Don't give me that bull**** kitchen knife lecture!!!
 
Perhaps my above response focuses too much on weapon vs. tool.

I feel that pocket knife collecting is so multifaceted. There are handmade, and production knives. Tons of different blade steels, shapes etc. Tons of different handle and bolster materials. My favorite...tons of different locking mechanisms. IMHO the fact that any one of my pocketknives could serve as a weapon is low on my list of concerns. I don't look at a knife thinking "how good a weapon would this be?" I look at them for their aesthetic, I buy them for their quality, I use them for the task at hand.

~Mitch
 
Yes knives are tools.
Yes knives are weapons.
Law-abiding citizens with tools and weapons should cause no worries for anybody in a free nation.
No knife (or gun for that matter)has NEVER attacked anyone.
 
Over the course of the last few hundred years, in all cultures throughout the entire world, the carrying and owning of weapons has become less and less socially acceptable.

Now, I ain't saying that's good, but it's a fact that we need to accept. I don't think there's anything wrong with carrying a weapon for self-defense, but most people do and they always will. You can say, "I don't care what the majority thinks!" But the majority gets to make the laws.

Trying to reverse the historical trend is going to be a lot more difficult than simply trying to avoid it. If the average Joe sees knives as tools rather than weapons, knife users are less likely to be socially ostracized or legally punished.


[This message has been edited by cerulean (edited 08-07-2000).]
 
We seem to be living in a world where the 19th century philosophies of man's inate "goodness" (as opposed to the more traditional view of man possessed by "evil" impulse)continue to muddle our minds. Guess what - the perp who beat up the disabled old man for his wallet is not bad, he merely had a deprived childhood.
Add to this increasing "legalism", the belief that law can solve social problems, with attendant demands that form replace function. Anyone out there remember the Vietcong captured and executed on the spot in Saigon by the chief of police? The outcry then was "He wasn't put on trial". That outcry has become a whining chorus.
The bottom line is that putting a finger on that misguided miscreant is a job better left to the police and the courts. In other words, SELF DEFENSE IS ILLEGAL, or at least very risky to your continued liberty and/or financial well being.

mosh
 
Stiletto, I just want to expand a bit on what Jim said.

It's about the law, its' purpose, and the ideal result. The rules are supposed to protect society for its'own good.

We're supposed to be civilized with common values and mature and settle disputes with words. If don't like it, we're supposed to walk away.

When it comes to self defense, the basic message is you'd really better be the victim before fighting back. This doesn't make sense to a lot of people, good and bad.
 
For all you pacifists out there, what the hell are you going to do when some one is intent on putting the hurt on you? Are you going to use harsh words or cry like a bitch? Your scream will be your last because the cops will come in time to identify your cause of death. I rather use self defense and deal with the consequences than be outlined in chalk.

The big the blade, the better the reach
 
Knives are not weapons !
The man/woman that holds them is the weapon, a tool of their own agression.
Things cannot be a weapon unless used so.

A nuclear powerplant is an potential A-bom, right? A deerhunting rifle is a potential sniperrifle, right? A kitchenknife is a potential stabbingweapon, right?
Even a dog can be a weapon, if trained that way. By defining weapons as things used to kill, you avoid the responsability that comes with weapons. The best defenition is things that can potentially be used to kill, and that goes from powerplants to needles, from trees to dogs.
Note "things". I did not say weapons, because nobody wants to know a car is a weapon. Still, it is. So are knives. But it is stupid to blame the knife and tag it "weapon". The only danger comes from the hand holding it.
And it is only human to find better tools, even for killing.
I feel knives carry a blame for some reason, a tag guns don't carry (in the USA).
People should grow up and realise they are the only weapons around.

greetz, Bart.
 
Sorry Bart, we disagree.

We must make sure armed self defense remains respectable, and that knives have a legitimate role in that.

That means admitting that at least some (more like most) are indeed potential weapons.

Once we publicly deny self defense is an issue or need, we're screwed. See also Britain, Australia, many others.

Jim
 
Hello Stiletto,

To address the middle portion of your post: I don't think anyone would disagree that a knife can be a "devastatingly effective weapon", and I can't remember reading any posts that would disagree. However, I have read many posts that more or less state that a knife shouldn't be a primary self-defense weapon, especially for someone who runs a high risk of actually putting a weapon into use. I think that is what so many are trying to get across, and not the idea that a knife can't be used with deadly effectiveness.

have fun,
Phil Reedy
 
One of the differences of opinion here is between two different political strategies:
1. Say that knives are tools and not weapons, so there will be no need to regulate them (further or at all);
2. Describe knives as necessary defensive weapons which people need in order to help insure their personal safety, the regulation of which will lead to unsafe conditions for many citizens and/or a violation of their rights.

Both of these strategies are used by people with the same desired effect - the deregulation and destigmatization of personal cutlery. There are (good and bad)arguments for and against each strategy, some of which have been mentioned above, more of which will probably be mentioned below. I don't know which strategy will be most effective to use in the public forum. I think of my knives as both weapons and tools, though I have been fortunate enough to use them only as tools so far. If a coworker or LEO were to ask me what my knives are for, I would describe them as tools. If a friend were to ask the same question, I would use both descriptions. If I may loosely quote James Mattis, (quoting from memory I'll probably butcher this) "A knife is a very useful tool for many things, including social emergencies," or, "it can be used to peel an apple, cut a sandwich, open a package, or, G-d forbid, in case I have to make someone let go of me," or, "a knife is useful in many situations, including all types of emergencies, which may not necessarily include a human assailant." (note that these are not direct quotations, but I think the gist has been retained) I think this low key approach is more people-friendly than saying something like: "I carry this knife so that if anyone tries to f**k with me I can gut 'em."

As far as discussion on the forums goes, if we talk about many knives with regards only to their utility uses, we all know their other uses, so there is no need to bring that up. Everyone here recognizes that a "knife can be used as a devastatingly effective weapon under the right circumstances" - that's why it doesn't always need to be said. Someone on the forums here once said something like, "I don't carry weapons, I carry tools - I just happen to be versed in their uses," I think this statement contains a full recognition that knives are formidable weapons, and that there is no need to write "combat knife" on an item which will be used to cut ten miles of string for every inch of flesh. There are also a number of firearm carriers here, and if it comes down to using a blade to protect themselves, something has gone seriously wrong. There is also an informal and non-codified BFC etiquette within which no one wants to sound like Nick1016 or Chariot.

------------------
Jason aka medusaoblongata
-----------------------
"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"

- Zarathustra
 
I don't really see why the principle of self defense has to be directly connected to any particular weapon or implement unless it is a weapon like a handgun or assault rifle which is expressly designed for killing. I think that self defense falls into two categories: self defense done with incidental tools at hand; and self defense done with implements designed for conflict like pepper spray or handguns. Using this definition, not even all guns fall under the definition of intentional weapons. For instance, a 22 rifle or 30.06 deer rifle should be seen primarily as a hunting tool whereas a Glock 9mm is clearly a defensive weapon.
I don't want my nifty one hander defined as primarily a weapon. If it is then it will be subject to the same regulation as a handgun. Those who want knives regarded primarily as weapons must realize that they are opening the door to licensing and regulation. At one level this might be good, one could register a push dagger or auto much like one would register a revolver or derringer. This could remove any question of a legal right to use the weapon in a confrontation but it would also tend to make all knives weapons in the eyes of the uninformed just as all guns are seen as equally weapons by people nowadays.
Personally, I like the fact that some tools like Maglite flashlights, heavy brooms, pocketknives etc. can be used as weapons but are also patently useful in non-aggressive activities. I just want to be able to carry a reasonable sized knife and be able to say in all earnestness that I use it for cutting boxes, trimming my nails, picking splinters etc. Just like my big Maglite in my car is seeihng things at night. Every potential weapon should not be listed as an intentional weapon.
 
Originally posted by Phillip Reedy:
Hello Stiletto,

To address the middle portion of your post: I don't think anyone would disagree that a knife can be a "devastatingly effective weapon", and I can't remember reading any posts that would disagree. However, I have read many posts that more or less state that a knife shouldn't be a primary self-defense weapon, especially for someone who runs a high risk of actually putting a weapon into use. I think that is what so many are trying to get across, and not the idea that a knife can't be used with deadly effectiveness.

have fun,
Phil Reedy
Click to expand...

This has been my primary point. Without proper training, a knife is a legal and physical liability to an individual attempting to defend themselves. If you don't know specifically how to use a knife in self-defense, then don't think of your knife as a self-defense weapon. First, it will give you a sense of false confidence, placing you at serious disadvantage. Second, it will be taken from you and placed in one of your orifices. Third, you will go to jail for either brandishing or using the knife.

If you are adequately trained to use a knife, then odds are excellent that you are also adequately trained to use your hands, feet, head, and other objects laying around on the ground. You have a far better chance of using one of these items effectively in "combat" than the sub-4" knife in your pocket. If a 2X4, broom handle, or pipe is laying around, you're far better off than trying to use the little knife. If your state allows concealed firearm carry, using a knife as your primary weapon is just plain silly.

The answers from those who are qualified to respond have remained consistent. Get trained. Learn how to defend yourself with whatever you are likely to find in your environment. Once you have the appropriate training, you'll realize just how silly these "Which knife is the best weapon?" questions really are.

If you live in a right-to-carry state, get trained, get a permit, and carry a weapon that will allow you to defend yourself without entering arm's reach.

------------------
AKTI Member #A000832

"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, the bear eats you."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top