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KNIVES AS WEAPONS... What is the problem?
- Thread starter Stiletto Raggio
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2000
- Messages
- 3,221
Kallisti (or anyone else, for that matter), an environmentalist (the real ones, not the other kind
) is someone who seeks to safeguard the long-term health of the planet and all those on it. While nuclear power does produce dangerous waste, it produces extremely small quanitites. And combustion-powered generation system produces massive amounts of carbon dioxide (and coal even realeases a decent amount of radiation), which is literally changing the climate of the planet, at a rate which could never occur naturally. Modern nuclear plants are very safe (in Massachusetts, there's one in Boston and one in Worcetser, at MIT and WPI, respectively; bet no one guessed that
), not at all like the design of Chernobyl. Anyway, if anyone actually read down this far, and wants more environmental stuff, email me and I'll send you a copy of a paper I wrote.
--JB
P.S., um, I couldn't think of any way to add knife content; sorry
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
--JB
P.S., um, I couldn't think of any way to add knife content; sorry
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
All I want to know is.... Where in the hell did you find "trapshooter's" that were shooting Benelli's and Ruger's????
I have been trapshooting for quite some time now, and I don't think I have ever seen a Red Label or a Benelli on a trap range....
Both are great firearm's, but trapguns.... Get outta here!
Just for the record.... Ruger has a trapgun in the works! The way I understand it, it should be on the market very shortly!
I have been trapshooting for quite some time now, and I don't think I have ever seen a Red Label or a Benelli on a trap range....
Both are great firearm's, but trapguns.... Get outta here!
Just for the record.... Ruger has a trapgun in the works! The way I understand it, it should be on the market very shortly!
- Joined
- May 1, 2000
- Messages
- 2,259
Speaking as someone who has studied a bit of nuclear physics, e_utopia is right about nuclear power. The amount of waste produced, while highly toxic, is very small and contained. Waste from fossil fuel plants is released into the environment.
The public fear of all things nuclear is quite similar in many ways to the public fear of all things edged (obligatory knife reference requirement satisfied
).
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"
- Zarathustra
The public fear of all things nuclear is quite similar in many ways to the public fear of all things edged (obligatory knife reference requirement satisfied
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"
- Zarathustra
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2000
- Messages
- 546
GeneL74: I am glad to here that Ruger has a purpose built trapgun on the way, as I feel taht they should expand their shotgun line expoonentially. They make a firearm suitable for any purpose, with three missing niches: a full power auto-loader (like a BAR or M1A), a 50 cal competition gun, and a repeating shotgun (pump or auto). If they could fill these positions well, I would be content to shoot nothing but Ruger if I had to.
I shoot my Benelli M1 Super 90 at the local trap range all the time. Great gun, even if some people call it ugly. It still breaks birds like a dream. And a Red Label is a quite effective trap gun if it needs to be. That is what my dad shoots, and 24s and 25s don't lie.
e_utopia: you are right about Nuclear power. This waste is a relatively small amount and can be safely stored in old salt mines in the desrt (I saw this on Dicovery). In the no-so-far-off future they will be able to rocket it into the Sun, where it will be a downright paltry contribution to the natural radiation.
What I am really concerned about is rising tides. Sorry, California, Florida and Cape Cod, but you will all be a little closer to the shore in 50 years, some of you will own underwater estates.
I support real environmentalism, but the hippie bull just cheapens the important message that you guys have.
I shoot my Benelli M1 Super 90 at the local trap range all the time. Great gun, even if some people call it ugly. It still breaks birds like a dream. And a Red Label is a quite effective trap gun if it needs to be. That is what my dad shoots, and 24s and 25s don't lie.
e_utopia: you are right about Nuclear power. This waste is a relatively small amount and can be safely stored in old salt mines in the desrt (I saw this on Dicovery). In the no-so-far-off future they will be able to rocket it into the Sun, where it will be a downright paltry contribution to the natural radiation.
What I am really concerned about is rising tides. Sorry, California, Florida and Cape Cod, but you will all be a little closer to the shore in 50 years, some of you will own underwater estates.
I support real environmentalism, but the hippie bull just cheapens the important message that you guys have.
I use knives as tools and would encourage members of the Knife Community to emphasize their usefulness as tools.
I also support the right to defend one's self when attacked using anything that is readily available to improve one's chances of survival.
Unfortunately, if we emphasize the use of knives as weapons we provide the Anti's with ammunition to use against us.
If you want to publicize cases of knives being used for Self-Defense please do it with cases of people using Kitchen Knives to defend themselves in their home to emphasize that A Tool has been pressed into service as a Defensive Weapon.
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AKTI Member No. A000370
Email: DouglasSctt@Netscape.net
I also support the right to defend one's self when attacked using anything that is readily available to improve one's chances of survival.
Unfortunately, if we emphasize the use of knives as weapons we provide the Anti's with ammunition to use against us.
If you want to publicize cases of knives being used for Self-Defense please do it with cases of people using Kitchen Knives to defend themselves in their home to emphasize that A Tool has been pressed into service as a Defensive Weapon.
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AKTI Member No. A000370
Email: DouglasSctt@Netscape.net
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Oct 7, 1998
- Messages
- 3,022
SDouglas: I suspect you wrote that without reading the whole thread.
Go back and look at my posts back there. We completely disagree, and I've given exacting reasons why I think you're wrong. I'd be interested to see if you can rebut my line of thinking.
Jim
Go back and look at my posts back there. We completely disagree, and I've given exacting reasons why I think you're wrong. I'd be interested to see if you can rebut my line of thinking.
Jim
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2000
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- 981
I sometimes carry a knife as a DEFENSIVE implement.
Let me make a few points:
1. I'm NOT some punk on the street. I've never used illegal drugs, don't drink alcohol, have a university degree, honest tax paying citizen, etc.
2. Outside of traffic violations, I've never been in trouble with the law.
3. The last time I was in a street fight was when some 'roid monkey' punk pushed an elderly lady. So I beat up the old lady -- just kidding!
4. I respect the damage a knife -- or any particular implement - can do if it's in the wrong hands.
5. I like knives not for it's utilitarian purposes for cutting. But almost like art: it's design, embellished features, etc.
Now I'm not encouraging anyone from carrying a knife. It's up to the individual to decide base on his/her discretion, moral values, etc.
That said, I carry a blade because I honestly believe that it's not safe for those of us in large metropolitan cities. There are those few malicious people just willing to take advantage of you.
In my own city, there are heroin junkies in the urban core who mug people by threatening them with dirty saringe needles.
Yes, it's best to avoid these situations. However, you can't always forsee things and I refuse to be a prisoner in my city by being restricted to go where I want to go.
If I'm ever cornered in a crisis situation, I'm hoping the blade will equalize the situation either by deterring the other guy (girl) from attacking, or -- if necessary -- incapacitating the individual(s).
Let's hope it never happens.
Let me make a few points:
1. I'm NOT some punk on the street. I've never used illegal drugs, don't drink alcohol, have a university degree, honest tax paying citizen, etc.
2. Outside of traffic violations, I've never been in trouble with the law.
3. The last time I was in a street fight was when some 'roid monkey' punk pushed an elderly lady. So I beat up the old lady -- just kidding!
4. I respect the damage a knife -- or any particular implement - can do if it's in the wrong hands.
5. I like knives not for it's utilitarian purposes for cutting. But almost like art: it's design, embellished features, etc.
Now I'm not encouraging anyone from carrying a knife. It's up to the individual to decide base on his/her discretion, moral values, etc.
That said, I carry a blade because I honestly believe that it's not safe for those of us in large metropolitan cities. There are those few malicious people just willing to take advantage of you.
In my own city, there are heroin junkies in the urban core who mug people by threatening them with dirty saringe needles.
Yes, it's best to avoid these situations. However, you can't always forsee things and I refuse to be a prisoner in my city by being restricted to go where I want to go.
If I'm ever cornered in a crisis situation, I'm hoping the blade will equalize the situation either by deterring the other guy (girl) from attacking, or -- if necessary -- incapacitating the individual(s).
Let's hope it never happens.
I do not believe that we, those who believe in self defense and the use of weapons to protect ourselves, are the minority. I believe the problem we face is that we are the silent majority, and that silence makes us appear to be the minority. Who gets more press, the group of one thousand who quietly and peacefully stands up to voice their opinion or the group of one hundred who screams at the tops of their lungs, ranting and raving to get their point across?
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2000
- Messages
- 333
the knives as weapons thread asks "what is the problem?"
i am a aux. police officer in nassau county; who thinks of knives as tools and/or works of art.
Suppose you have a confrontation with someone who initiates a robbery attempt; a fight etc. in these circumstances logical reasoning disappears. people act on impulse and you counter the threat using your knife. he gets cut, you survive and the police come. result - you go to jail for using a deadly weapon and your assailant sues you in civil court and you lose your house, car etc. this is not a worse case scenario. you might have been killed.
i work in ny city and most people realize
if you see a threat you distance yourself
& call the police.
like phil said we can be our own worst enemy
imo
sky
[This message has been edited by sky masterson (edited 08-17-2000).]
i am a aux. police officer in nassau county; who thinks of knives as tools and/or works of art.
Suppose you have a confrontation with someone who initiates a robbery attempt; a fight etc. in these circumstances logical reasoning disappears. people act on impulse and you counter the threat using your knife. he gets cut, you survive and the police come. result - you go to jail for using a deadly weapon and your assailant sues you in civil court and you lose your house, car etc. this is not a worse case scenario. you might have been killed.
i work in ny city and most people realize
if you see a threat you distance yourself
& call the police.
like phil said we can be our own worst enemy
imo
sky
[This message has been edited by sky masterson (edited 08-17-2000).]
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2000
- Messages
- 981
Sky,
I respect your reasons for discouraging people for carrying knives even for defensive purposes. Especially, if your local laws consider it a concealed weapon.
Secondly, I have the utmost respect for law enforcement officials. I even contemplated joining my national RCMP (mounties) up until two years ago.
However, to use a cliche: the police can't be everywhere. You cannot expect someone in a crisis situation -- that is, when you are in eminent danger -- to wait for the police to arrive out of the blue like Batman.
When I had to fight the 'roid monkey' I described in my previous post, believe me, I tried to calm him down, tried to reason with him, etc. No dice. It was fight, or let him pummel me. Lucky for me I've had enough martial arts training which helped me fend him off and nobody got seriously hurt. However, where were the police to intervene? This is a typical street confrontation situation. It happens in an instant.
RE: Being charged/sued, etc. There are laws in the books which allow citizens to use "reasonable force". It would be ridiculous for me to pull a knife out defensely if a 75 year old man, 130lbs, with road rage started screaming at me. However, if it's some 200 lb brute coming at me in malice...
Lastly, when my life is on the line, I don't care about being charged or sued. I only care about getting out of there in one piece.
I respect your reasons for discouraging people for carrying knives even for defensive purposes. Especially, if your local laws consider it a concealed weapon.
Secondly, I have the utmost respect for law enforcement officials. I even contemplated joining my national RCMP (mounties) up until two years ago.
However, to use a cliche: the police can't be everywhere. You cannot expect someone in a crisis situation -- that is, when you are in eminent danger -- to wait for the police to arrive out of the blue like Batman.
When I had to fight the 'roid monkey' I described in my previous post, believe me, I tried to calm him down, tried to reason with him, etc. No dice. It was fight, or let him pummel me. Lucky for me I've had enough martial arts training which helped me fend him off and nobody got seriously hurt. However, where were the police to intervene? This is a typical street confrontation situation. It happens in an instant.
RE: Being charged/sued, etc. There are laws in the books which allow citizens to use "reasonable force". It would be ridiculous for me to pull a knife out defensely if a 75 year old man, 130lbs, with road rage started screaming at me. However, if it's some 200 lb brute coming at me in malice...
Lastly, when my life is on the line, I don't care about being charged or sued. I only care about getting out of there in one piece.
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Oct 7, 1998
- Messages
- 3,022
In response to Sky Masterson:
Sure, if some thug attacks you with his fists and you knife him, you're going to have legal troubles barring some very unusual extenuating circumstances.
If you carry a lethal weapon, you'd damned well better understand use-of-force laws specific for your state. And you'd better be prepared for any sub-lethal problem that comes along, either via running, unarmed combat skill, above-average strength or pepper spray.
All of that goes without saying, it's part of the legality and philosophy of armed self defense. The issues are identical whether we're talking knife or gun.
I know of two basic categories of circumstances where you *might* get away with knifing/shooting an unarmed assailant:
1) You *know* for a fact that the aggressive individual is physically and mentally capable of doing serious bodily injury to you. He's either done it to you before (often the case with battered women, if the SOB put her in the hospital the last time and now he's out of jail and pissed, well, there ain't much guesswork involved...) or you've seen him lash out in such extreme fashion against others.
2) The guy attacks you and actually delivers extreme damage and continues his attack...plausibly, you can say "enough". The classic example was the Hale shooting in TX, 1996. 50ish year old Gordon Hale was attacked while seated in his truck by a much younger, stronger "road rager" who'd hit Hale's vehicle wand was objecting to Hale's writing down the rager's license plate.
Hale suffered a broken cheekbone and detached retina. The rager then tried to drag Hale out the open window of his vehicle. Hale grabbed a legally-carried Glock and put one round through his assailant's chest, killing him. I seem to recall this was the first shooting under TX's new CCW laws effective 1/1/96 and as such, it was widely scrutinized.
Hale was no-billed by a TX grand jury, who found he had fired to prevent his "death or great bodily injury" in accord with TX law. California uses that same "death or great bodily injury" language to describe justification for lethal force.
IMPORTANT: THESE CIRCUMSTANCES ARE RELATIVELY RARE, AND ALWAYS CONTROVERSIAL. In the Hale case, the DA tried desperately for an indictment.
You must have a non-lethal alternative of SOME type available.
Jim
Sure, if some thug attacks you with his fists and you knife him, you're going to have legal troubles barring some very unusual extenuating circumstances.
If you carry a lethal weapon, you'd damned well better understand use-of-force laws specific for your state. And you'd better be prepared for any sub-lethal problem that comes along, either via running, unarmed combat skill, above-average strength or pepper spray.
All of that goes without saying, it's part of the legality and philosophy of armed self defense. The issues are identical whether we're talking knife or gun.
I know of two basic categories of circumstances where you *might* get away with knifing/shooting an unarmed assailant:
1) You *know* for a fact that the aggressive individual is physically and mentally capable of doing serious bodily injury to you. He's either done it to you before (often the case with battered women, if the SOB put her in the hospital the last time and now he's out of jail and pissed, well, there ain't much guesswork involved...) or you've seen him lash out in such extreme fashion against others.
2) The guy attacks you and actually delivers extreme damage and continues his attack...plausibly, you can say "enough". The classic example was the Hale shooting in TX, 1996. 50ish year old Gordon Hale was attacked while seated in his truck by a much younger, stronger "road rager" who'd hit Hale's vehicle wand was objecting to Hale's writing down the rager's license plate.
Hale suffered a broken cheekbone and detached retina. The rager then tried to drag Hale out the open window of his vehicle. Hale grabbed a legally-carried Glock and put one round through his assailant's chest, killing him. I seem to recall this was the first shooting under TX's new CCW laws effective 1/1/96 and as such, it was widely scrutinized.
Hale was no-billed by a TX grand jury, who found he had fired to prevent his "death or great bodily injury" in accord with TX law. California uses that same "death or great bodily injury" language to describe justification for lethal force.
IMPORTANT: THESE CIRCUMSTANCES ARE RELATIVELY RARE, AND ALWAYS CONTROVERSIAL. In the Hale case, the DA tried desperately for an indictment.
You must have a non-lethal alternative of SOME type available.
Jim
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Oct 7, 1998
- Messages
- 3,022
Oooops - missed one. If the assailant is *clearly* drugged to the gills and/or totally, obviously buckfu@& crazy, and has no possible rational reason for attacking you in the first place, his threat level just went up high enough to possibly justify lethal force. MAYBE. But it's a crapshoot - a lot will depend on toxicology tests after the fact.
If you can possibly deal with any of these three circumstances short of lethal force, DO SO. If you gassed his butt with pepper spray first, it'll "look good" later, as in, "geeking him" was the very last option.
Jim
If you can possibly deal with any of these three circumstances short of lethal force, DO SO. If you gassed his butt with pepper spray first, it'll "look good" later, as in, "geeking him" was the very last option.
Jim