Knives breaking while batoning wood

Use the proper tool for the proper job - unless you are in a survival situation. I am not going to carry a two foot sharpened pry-bar so that I can use my knife like an axe. I am either going to carry a pack axe - or I am going to alter my technique to fit the situation.

TF
 
Like Talfuchre, I consider batoning to be an emergency technique and batonability is not a factor I consider when contemplating buying a new knife, IMO there are actually very, very few real world situations where batoning is required. Chris
 
I consider batoning a kindling making technique, which isn't really all that strenuous on a knife. Splitting big gnarly pieces of wood? Definitely an axe job. But a knife does kindling just fine and we all know that good prep is one of the biggest keys to success with fire starting!

Also, batoning is a useful technique for rapid wood shaping. Use the blade like a chisel and tap the spine with a baton to make deep, controlled cuts in wood. Useful for shelter or tool building.
 
August West said:
Like Talfuchre, I consider batoning to be an emergency technique and batonability is not a factor I consider when contemplating buying a new knife, IMO there are actually very, very few real world situations where batoning is required. Chris
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Carrying an axe is all well and good but if you want to go for a long hike first it will be added weight, so it's nice to be do it all with a good big knife, at least for me! :) Maybe you can carry more weight than me! :P
 
Maybe but I doubt it, I 'm getting old and stove up, I just don't see the need to baton. I didn't say it was bad, I didn't say for you not to do it, there are more than one way to skin cats. I don't buy knives based on their ability to baton, IMO I would look pretty silly fishing my favorite trout stream or squirrel hunting my favorite ridge with some sharpened chainsaw bar hanging on my leg. Chris
 
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August West said:
Maybe but I doubt it, I 'm getting old and stove up, I just don't see the need to baton. I didn't say it was bad, I didn't say for you not to do it, there are more than one way to skin cats. I don't buy knives based on their ability to baton, IMO I would look pretty silly fishing my favorite trout stream or squirrel hunting my favorite ridge with some sharpened chainsaw bar hanging on my leg. Chris
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Yeah thats fair! We all have different ways of doing things, and different knives have different uses. I just find it easier, personally, not to have any extra weight in my pack, as I'm not a massive person, so if I can make one tool do many jobs, I will! :D
 
Talfuchre said:
Use the proper tool for the proper job - unless you are in a survival situation. I am not going to carry a two foot sharpened pry-bar so that I can use my knife like an axe. I am either going to carry a pack axe - or I am going to alter my technique to fit the situation.

TF
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August West said:
IMO I would look pretty silly fishing my favorite trout stream or squirrel hunting my favorite ridge with some sharpened chainsaw bar hanging on my leg. Chris
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It doesn't have to be big to baton. I baton kindling with my Izula 2 all the time. I would suspect it would be right at home squirrel hunting. :D I get your point though. If I only had one knife I wouldn't make a habit of batoning. I don't expect it to ever fail but you never know. In that instance doing fuzz sticks or some other technique to get to the dry wood would be prudent. However, I hardly ever leave my house with just one knife. ;)
 
Lots of statements I agree with above and a few that I don't.

"Use the proper tool for the proper job - unless you are in a survival situation. I am not going to carry a two foot sharpened pry-bar so that I can use my knife like an axe. I am either going to carry a pack axe - or I am going to alter my technique to fit the situation."

I agree, use the proper tool, 100%. I also agree that a good axe is going to be the most efficient wood processing tool considering weight carried, the types and amounts of wood that can be processed, and all the different types of techniques that can be used to do it. However, I do not consider battoning to be a 'survival only' technique. It's an every day technique that has been used long before my time (If battoning isn't a viable technique than what the hell is a froe for?) and again, when done correctly with a quality tool, won't give you any kind of grief.


"It doesn't have to be big to baton. I baton kindling with my Izula 2 all the time." Agreed-it does not have to be thick or long to be a durable battoning tool, just made from good steel designed for the use.

"Carrying an axe is all well and good but if you want to go for a long hike first it will be added weight, so it's nice to be do it all with a good big knife, at least for me! Maybe you can carry more weight than me! :P "

If I too lived in Ireland, I would much favor a long knife or a machete over an axe. Dealing with alot more brush and alot less hard woody stuff. However, most 'good big knives' weigh as much sheathed as a backpacking axe will, and if you have to carry an extra half pound for the efficiency of an axe, it is 100% justified.

Fortytwo is also correct, that battoning is a practical technique when applied to bushCRAFTing-when making stuff with limited tools, it's a great way to split wood in a controlled manner for making stuff-whether it be a trap, a paddle, a shelter, whatever. It's not only a firemaking technique, need not be limited to as such, need not be limited at all. In fact I think it's alot less abusive than other techniques, both on the tool and on the user. I'd consider whittling down a large amount of wood with a bushcraft knife abusive over a quick battoning split. All that prying side to side in hard media on a slicing edge? No thanks, I'd take a short, fast application of direct force rather than repeated tension and compression on an edge that's finer than hair.
 
If you want to baton, that's one thing but I see no real reason not to carry the proper tool, tomahawk, hatchet whatever. If you have to baton, which I see as realistically unlikely, perhaps you didn't plan ahead.
 
Tomahawks aren't really proper splitting tools. They're geared more towards felling and weapons use. Sure, you can split with them, but the taper of the bit is poorly geared for the task. And hatchets are often used like a wedge with a handle, and driven through wood by using a baton. Just saying. :D
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
I consider batoning a kindling making technique, which isn't really all that strenuous on a knife. Splitting big gnarly pieces of wood? Definitely an axe job. But a knife does kindling just fine and we all know that good prep is one of the biggest keys to success with fire starting!

Also, batoning is a useful technique for rapid wood shaping. Use the blade like a chisel and tap the spine with a baton to make deep, controlled cuts in wood. Useful for shelter or tool building.
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I share this philosophy and have never had a problem with ordinary, non pry-bar knives.
 
I never said I didn't Batton. I use the batton method a LOT with 4 inch knives and less. I use it for kindling, making bow drill components and the like. I simply don't understand putting your knife in a situation where you would BREAK it - unless you were in an emergency situation and you knew that you needed to abuse your knife to get out of it.

Usually my battoning consists of a few taps with a batton to make a even flat cut on a piece of wood to split it.

Concerning the weight issue. I also don't understand carrying 'chopping' knives. They are huge and I cannot use them for 90% of the camp chores I do. The largest knife I carry is a Kephart. I supplement a knife around this size with another tool depending on the circumstance. If I am hiking in Texas - usually my Kephart is all I carry - but if I am in Bayou areas - I will bring a Golok. If I am Hiking in Michigan - I will bring a camp axe with me. If I were stuck without an axe and absolutley HAD to split wood - I would carve wooden wedges and use a rock to split it.

I just don't get the 1/4 inch thick tacticool chopping things I see people use. But that is just me.

In short, when used correctly, no knife should break during battoning - once you consider the type of knife you have and how you should use it.

TF
 
Anything from a $10 Mora to a full on custom will do the job. Crappy soft stainless blades with partial or no tang are what usually break. A full tang quality carbon knife shouldn't break.

I am a fan of 10" choppers for batoning. However I would guess I have made just as much kindling with my 5" Ingram, Scrapyard and Swamp Rat knives.
 
Talfuchre said:
I never said I didn't Batton. I use the batton method a LOT with 4 inch knives and less. I use it for kindling, making bow drill components and the like. I simply don't understand putting your knife in a situation where you would BREAK it - unless you were in an emergency situation and you knew that you needed to abuse your knife to get out of it.

Usually my battoning consists of a few taps with a batton to make a even flat cut on a piece of wood to split it.

Concerning the weight issue. I also don't understand carrying 'chopping' knives. They are huge and I cannot use them for 90% of the camp chores I do. The largest knife I carry is a Kephart. I supplement a knife around this size with another tool depending on the circumstance. If I am hiking in Texas - usually my Kephart is all I carry - but if I am in Bayou areas - I will bring a Golok. If I am Hiking in Michigan - I will bring a camp axe with me. If I were stuck without an axe and absolutley HAD to split wood - I would carve wooden wedges and use a rock to split it.

I just don't get the 1/4 inch thick tacticool chopping things I see people use. But that is just me.

In short, when used correctly, no knife should break during battoning - once you consider the type of knife you have and how you should use it.

TF
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This is funny, i grew up hiking/hunting/etc in northern michigan - winter, spring, fall.....

For me, from a safety perspective, i simply won't use axes/hatchets in the back-country.

Then again, i don't try to split big chunks of wood in the back-country (though i *love* splitting wood). I tend toward using lower-leg sized branches/logs and smaller. If a big 'ol log is easily accessible, i split off the wet, outer punky wood to get to the dry stuff underneath and then put it at the edge of the fire to burn as it dries. Works great.
 
Ive had great luck with a 12" ontario machete. she'll flex and look like a broke knife story waiting to happen, but has never failed to split the wood or return straight. And if she does break...I'm only out $20 and I didn't break a multi hundred dollar custom :D Just my .02 though.
 
fmajor007 said:
This is funny, i grew up hiking/hunting/etc in northern michigan - winter, spring, fall.....

For me, from a safety perspective, i simply won't use axes/hatchets in the back-country.

Then again, i don't try to split big chunks of wood in the back-country (though i *love* splitting wood). I tend toward using lower-leg sized branches/logs and smaller. If a big 'ol log is easily accessible, i split off the wet, outer punky wood to get to the dry stuff underneath and then put it at the edge of the fire to burn as it dries. Works great.
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That is funny. I should have been more clear. If I am in Michigan AND I plan on splitting wood - I bring an Axe. Most times I don't do that - I do exactly as you do. I think this is because I don't set up a large semi-permenant shelter out there. Were I planning on doing that - I would certainly bring an Axe. I am a hiker / camper / backpacker who wants to be prepared if I need to be. I don't see a lot of need for a huge axe, a LOT of battoning, or chopping in my situations. I find myself skirting situations where I could get in the type of trouble necessary to abuse my knife.

Maybe I don't explore as much this way - but it is my life...


...and perhaps this is what is at the core of this conversation. We may be comparing apples to oranges. My way of camping and hiking may not be your way.

However - the point stands - any knife, used correctly, can stand a little to a lot of battoning depending on its type. Abuse will break or damage any knife.

TF
 
Talfuchre said:
That is funny. I should have been more clear. If I am in Michigan AND I plan on splitting wood - I bring an Axe. Most times I don't do that - I do exactly as you do. I think this is because I don't set up a large semi-permenant shelter out there. Were I planning on doing that - I would certainly bring an Axe. I am a hiker / camper / backpacker who wants to be prepared if I need to be. I don't see a lot of need for a huge axe, a LOT of battoning, or chopping in my situations. I find myself skirting situations where I could get in the type of trouble necessary to abuse my knife.

Maybe I don't explore as much this way - but it is my life...


...and perhaps this is what is at the core of this conversation. We may be comparing apples to oranges. My way of camping and hiking may not be your way.

However - the point stands - any knife, used correctly, can stand a little to a lot of battoning depending on its type. Abuse will break or damage any knife.

TF
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lol - what was funny was that michigan was used an example! Nothing more past that.... I agree wholeheartedly with whatcher saying.

Why just the other day i saw a 6" white plastic picnic knife batonning through 6" steel well-casing - it's all in the technique i always say ;)
 
Only experience for me: a buddy was driving a Trail Hawk througha 1ft. log and there was a twisted knot in the middle. When the Hawk stopped he hit the back of it with a baton and it went through..... the Hawk was bent afterwords though. To be honest it probably shouldn't have been batoned but it did twist the blade some.

Most of my batoning has been done with an ESEE-6 and I've had no problems with it.

Eli
 
Batoning is IMO a great technique when GOOD technique is used.
I agree with 42 , batoning is not JUST for the fire..infact, I almost never use it for fire, its to make stuff.
I love bushcraft because in my eyes, its wood working in its primitive form.
Its all the user. If you push any tool past its limits, it will break.
I have broken many a hammer or pry bar on the job, using them for their intended tasks...but I had been doing the same task with said tool thousands of times, and always with bad intent...
I never looked at the tool and thought, man, what a hunk of junk (well, maybe sometimes) it was always me trying to force the issue.
Its the same with a blade..push it past its breaking point, and whalla! it breaks.
 
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