Knives in Vietnam

[KenHash]

IIRC, the first US military orders for CISO/SOG knives were from Japan Sword. Later orders had different manufacturers, thus the differences in configuration.

SOG Specialties had their reproductions made by Hattori, in Seki City, Japan. They claimed, in the early days of the company, that their repros were made in the same factory that made the originals. I don't know if this means that Hattori got one of the original contracts, or if they purchased a property where a previous owner had made the knives for the US.

The two contractors with CISCO were Japan Sword, owned by the Inami family (see Inami Hakusui - swordmaker), and Yogi Shoukai KK a trading firm believed to be a subsidiary of the large trading firm Nichimen. It is speculated that these two companies subcontracted to knife makers in Seki where the oem production of western knives had started in mid 1960s. If SOG Specialties' claim regarding their S1
is true the factory would be Masahiro, which is owned by the Hattori family. Ichiro Hattori was there until 1971 when he left to open his own factory, Hattori Hamono KK. Spencer Frazer contracted with Ichiro in 1986.
Photo: Japan Sword Co., Ltd, Tokyo 1960s.

 

[22-rimfire]

The original SOG knife (Spencer Frazier version) was pretty good overall. It still is actually. That knife has the same problem that many of the SOG knives do, the value is not there as compared to many of his competitors. But he has a distribution system in place to places like Home Depot, Lowe's Sportsman Warehouse, Bass Pro and so forth. Getting knives before the buying public is more important that an absolute comparison between companies except for us BF types.

 

[The Whip]

On my 4th tour I decided I wanted a knife a little bigger than my Ben Hibben Jungle Fighter (440C)

Interesting! I had to look up what a "Ben Hibben" model was. Any chance you could share a photo of your Jungle Fighter with us, John? That's a historical piece of custom cutlery that few of us have seen.

-Steve

 

[KenHash]

The original SOG knife (Spencer Frazier version) was pretty good overall. It still is actually. That knife has the same problem that many of the SOG knives do, the value is not there as compared to many of his competitors. But he has a distribution system in place to places like Home Depot, Lowe's Sportsman Warehouse, Bass Pro and so forth. Getting knives before the buying public is more important that an absolute comparison between companies except for us BF types.

I think one has to differentiate between the Seki SOGs and the post-Seki SOGs, the change occurring around 2005-2007. At least the serious SOG collectors do, who do not consider the Seki S1 and Bowie 2.0 to be the same knife.
The original 1986 S1 had no real problem with value vis-à-vis the competition at the time; Al Mar's SERES, Gerbers LMF, Cold Steel's Trail Master, etc etc. It sold successfully from 1986 to 2006.
SOG's post 2006 to current line, like the Taiwan made Bowie 2.0 with Aus8 is frankly, high priced for what it offers compared to today's competition. The SOGs I see in the places you mentioned seem to me to be lower end models and folders, which I think corresponds to the marketing tactic of many knife companies.

 

[KenHash]

Please delete-copy

 

[22-rimfire]

I think one has to differentiate between the Seki SOGs and the post-Seki SOGs, the change occurring around 2005-2007. At least the serious SOG collectors do, who do not consider the Seki S1 and Bowie 2.0 to be the same knife.
The original 1986 S1 had no real problem with value vis-à-vis the competition at the time; Al Mar's SERES, Gerbers LMF, Cold Steel's Trail Master, etc etc. It sold successfully from 1986 to 2006.
SOG's post 2006 to current line, like the Taiwan made Bowie 2.0 with Aus8 is frankly, high priced for what it offers compared to today's competition. The SOGs I see in the places you mentioned seem to me to be lower end models and folders, which I think corresponds to the marketing tactic of many knife companies.

I've drifted away from SOG in terms of buying their knives. I never owned the S1 and most of my SOGs that I feel are pretty good knives are Seki steel with the exception of the Seal Pup Elite which I find to be a very usable blade. But I have a lot of other choices now since those buying days..

 

[justjed]

I have a Seki SOG S1, it's a very respectable using knife(even if I do feel slighted by it not having a sharpened clip, for historical accuracy). Hattori is a manufacturer that I trust to get the heat treat right. Aside from a first gen Tomcat(which I foolishly sold), it's the only other SOG product I ever really wanted. It's not a Randall, but it's close, in my opinion. Mine works in the kitchen at times, in the yard at times, camping, and any other time I feel like carrying a little too much knife for the job at hand. And, I figure, plenty of other folks bought an S1 with no intention of ever actually using it. There are plenty of mint S1s out there. Mine just isn't one of them.

 

[22-rimfire]

I have a SOG S1, it's a very respectable using knife(even if I do feel slighted by it not having a sharpened clip, for historical accuracy). Hattori is a manufacturer that I trust to get the heat treat right. Aside from a first gen Tomcat(which I foolishly sold), it's the only other SOG product I ever really wanted. It's not a Randall, but it's close, in my opinion. Mine works in the kitchen at times, in the yard at times, camping, and any other time I feel like carrying a little too much knife for the job at hand. And, I figure, plenty of other folks bought an S1 with no intention of ever actually using it. There are plenty of mint S1s out there. Mine just isn't one of them.

I have a couple Randall's with the sharpened clip (normally false edge) and it is the dominant reason I don't want to use them. My draft number was high and I was in college. Didn't want to stop that unless I had to at the time.

 

[justjed]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, my dad had one of the originals(SOG bowie), which had the sharpened clip. Considering the role intended for the originals, I thought when they first came out, and still do, that the clip should have been sharpened on the repros. I understand why it wasn't, and it doesn't change how I feel about the knife as a user, but it's not a 100% accurate reproduction, either.

No, the SOG S1 and Bowie 2.0 are NOT the same knife at all, they don't even feel the same.

 

[John A. Larsen]

The Whip, I sent you a message on your profile page. John

 

[Sosa]

Speaking of knives in Vietnam I’m curious what knives were in common use by the VC and NVA. Not much mentioned at all if anything.

 

[KenHash]

Yes

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, my dad had one of the originals(SOG bowie), which had the sharpened clip. Considering the role intended for the originals, I thought when they first came out, and still do, that the clip should have been sharpened on the repros. I understand why it wasn't, and it doesn't change how I feel about the knife as a user, but it's not a 100% accurate reproduction, either.

No, the SOG S1 and Bowie 2.0 are NOT the same knife at all, they don't even feel the same.

There were the sterile "users" and there were the "commemoratives". The commemoratives had engravings on the blade and a grind line that sweeps up to meet the point on the spine nearest the bolster. Whereas the "users" have a grind line that goes past the second spine point and ends closer to the bolster. The SOG S1 was a reproduction of a commemorative model.

 

[JPD1998]

I can't add anything about the knives, but back in the late 60's / early 70's you vets were my heroes ( and still are).

 

[The Whip]

There were the sterile "users" and there were the "commemoratives". The commemoratives had engravings on the blade and a grind line that sweeps up to meet the point on the spine nearest the bolster. Whereas the "users" have a grind line that goes past the second spine point and ends closer to the bolster. The SOG S1 was a reproduction of a commemorative model.

A distinction worth illustrating, I think.

Commemorative

User

-Steve

 

[The Whip]

Mr. Larsen graciously allowed me to post pictures of two of his knives from his Vietnam days. The first is the Ben Hibben Jungle Fighter. The second is a Randall Model 14.

Both have had special, customized modifications made to them at John's request. They're his knives and his stories, however, so I'll leave the details for him to relate.

Thanks for sharing these, John!

-Steve

 

[John A. Larsen]

The Whip, Thanks for posting the photos. I had seen a Hibben Knife in Vietnam in 1965 and when I was Medevaced to Fitzsimmons Army Hospital (just TB) in Oct 65, I ordered a Ben Hibben Jungle Fighter for something like $25.65. Hibben was in partnership with a man named Benedict for a few months so that accounted for the name. It came with a leather washer handle and a more rounded butt cap. Hibben said the leather washers could shrink and they did, not helped when I found a Cambode had been throwing he knife and loosed the butt cap. When I rotated to Okinawa in Aug 1968, I sent the knife back to Hibben for the new "Jungle Washers" some artificial material that would not shrink and has not in 50 years. Hibben also cleaned up the knife, modified the butt cap into a skull crusher and sent me a nice letter saying "He for one appreciated the men who did the fighting for him". I specifically asked for two retention straps so as not to lose the knife when jumping. I decided I wanted a little bigger knife so before my last tour in 1971 I ordered the Model 14 from Van Sickle in Texas, you paid about a 20% markup but no waiting period. I was never completely happy with the finger grip handle, and after rotating back to the states in 1988 was introduced to the late custom knife maker, Wayne Goddard, by my good friend the late Gun/Knife writer Chuck Karwan at the Oregon Knife Collectors show in Eugene, OR. Wayne was doing a modification to Randall 14's and I had it done. Cost me more than the original knife did 18 years earlier, but for me it was a vast improvement in the grip and now the knife felt blade heavy, not handle heavy like before. Wayne deliberately put the lanyard hole where it is so you could chock back on the handle using the lanyard, so when you chopped it was like having a 10-inch blade instead of a 7-inch blade. The tape on the sheath holds a M14 ammunition pouch plastic stiffener on to the back of the sheath, to insure the tip of the sheath did not bend over and let the blade cut its way out. John

 

[The Whip]

Contemplating Mr. Larsen's amazing Vietnam knives, I have two observations:

1) Primarily due to his contributions to the Rambo franchise and to the United Cutlery catalog, I occasionally see Gil Hibben derided as "nothing but a fantasy knifemaker." And while I've shaken my head at one or two of his designs over the years, I've never forgotten the accounts I've read of soldiers carrying Hibben knives off to war. Here we have a shining example of that. It seems to me that a lifelong knifemaker who has made real combat knives for real Green Berets fighting real wars in foreign lands has earned the privilege of making fantasy combat knives for fantasy Green Berets fighting fantasy wars in Hollywood's fantasyland.

2) Because he was a knife guy, and because he knew that the vagaries of warfare could cause his life to depend on his knife, John Larsen chose to carry into combat the best knives his money could buy. There's a lesson in that. Sure, the possibilities of destruction or loss are ever present, as d762nato's brother-in-law learned painfully. But I still think Mr. Larsen's example is valuable for soldiers pondering whether to invest in a quality knife. If you might have to stake your life on a piece of equipment, it makes sense to me to seek out the best.

-Steve

 

[Lapedog]

Who made the SOG knives during the Vietnam War period? Certainly not the current SOG which I believe started up in 1986. What about EK knives? I feel sure there was a big difference between guys who were mostly support and the guys that hit the field on operations.

The sog knives of today has no relation to the SOG knives carried in Vietnam. They were produced by a number of Japanese shops without markings that would tie them to the US or any military, essentially sterile. SOG knife was a description and not a brand.

Ek knives had been being made by one company the whole time until the guy passed and kabar bought the company recently. The owner stated how he thought the kabar was a terrible knife according to his son and so the irony is there.

 

[Lapedog]

I think one has to differentiate between the Seki SOGs and the post-Seki SOGs, the change occurring around 2005-2007. At least the serious SOG collectors do, who do not consider the Seki S1 and Bowie 2.0 to be the same knife.
The original 1986 S1 had no real problem with value vis-à-vis the competition at the time; Al Mar's SERES, Gerbers LMF, Cold Steel's Trail Master, etc etc. It sold successfully from 1986 to 2006.
SOG's post 2006 to current line, like the Taiwan made Bowie 2.0 with Aus8 is frankly, high priced for what it offers compared to today's competition. The SOGs I see in the places you mentioned seem to me to be lower end models and folders, which I think corresponds to the marketing tactic of many knife companies.

Sog would very much like it if people remain ignorant and continue to believe they had something to do with the ‘nam era Sog knives.

Many people first take interest in knives reading those eyewitness or other books as kids which the Sog knife is prominently displayed in many of them. They grow up and there is a sort of mystique around “sog knives.” Oh it must be Sog brand that is still alive today!

Many will never find out and believe their Flash 2 tanto to be decendant from those nam sogs.

 

[GIRLYmann]

Wow! The 'nam-era knives were quite varied.
With issued material, personal purchases and what not.
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=2444
But i guess the rarity made anything remotely connected with

as high value collectables.
So in some way the sog knives replicas aren't too bad a choice that is readily available to the ordinary military knife collector... even if it is a tad pricey a replica at that