Knives in white steel

K

knucks

Joined
Apr 26, 2005
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Recently i started buying knives based on the blade steel just so i can decide for myself which ones i prefer, I've used quite a few different steels except for japanese white steel and a few hard to find others. I'm just curious about what everybody else thinks of it and how it stacks up againsts other well liked carbon steels. Also, i would like if somebody could recomend something cheap ($50 or so) with this steel.

Knucks
 
The Japan Woodworker sells a $30 folder of White steel in a left or right hand grind that isn't bad for the money. I've converted three to frame locks and added thumb studs to them for forum members but I also have one of the originals in my safe that I use for wood carving. The blue and white steel is 64 Rc hardness and are usually two pieces one tough iron that is softer for the spine and the white or blue steel edge that is super hard. The edges have been reported to be brittle by some but what I suspect is being written about is the new edge. It isn't uncommon for a brand new edge to develop a nick or two pretty quick. On my own knife it didn't get real great until like the third sharpening. Now it keeps an edge better than any other I use.


The old hammer forge welded steels like these are classics and still surpass many of the newer technology steels. I love these steels and the Rosselli steels as well. I really love the minimalist approach to knives and knife making though so maybe I'm somewhat biased. There is something really nostalgic about the hammer marks left on the blade though.

You can see one of the folders I made using one of the Japan woodworker blades here if interested. You can also see what it looks like from them when you buy it there in the third pic to the right. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416785

That folder can be a bit hard to find on their web site and their catalog so the order number for the right hand grind one is 15.137.512
and .515 for the last number for the left hand grind.

STR
 
I agree with STR. I really like white steel....better in fact than blue steel. Blue steel is substantially higher alloyed. White steel is barely anything more than iron and carbon but as I understand it, it is also very pure so you don't have any of the unwanted alloying elements. It takes an incredible edge very, very easily and holds it very well which is, I am sure, due to the high hardness. I never really though of it as very tough, but then again, I use an edge on it that is very, very fine and optimized for cutting ability. It discolors very easily, I haven't really seen pitting on it though, but as expected corrosion resistance is low.
I don't think I would want a general use folder in it, but it is one of my top choices for a dedicated kitchen knife. Yes, you have to take care of it, but you can make onion rings that are thin enough for microscopy (again because it will support such a fine geometry, and takes a high polish easily, I would also guess that it is an *extremely* fine grained steel (since it has practically no carbide formers), though I haven't seen any micrographs).
 
knucks said:
Recently i started buying knives based on the blade steel just so i can decide for myself which ones i prefer, I've used quite a few different steels except for japanese white steel and a few hard to find others. I'm just curious about what everybody else thinks of it and how it stacks up againsts other well liked carbon steels. Also, i would like if somebody could recomend something cheap ($50 or so) with this steel.

Knucks
Click to expand...

Higonokami is cheapest knives made out of Shirogami and Aogami.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Thanks everybody, i appriciate all the info, but does anybody have a link to where i can purchase one of these folders STR mentioned or one of those brass handled lockless folder which were mentioned in the "favourite knife under $20" thread, which i cant find.

Knucks
 
knucks said:
Is there a difference in steel used in the higonokami with the japanese writing on the handle and the blade from the steel used in the ones lee valley carries? http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=51165&cat=1,51222
Click to expand...

Here - brass handle - Shirogami, black handle - Aogami.

Higonokami-15.jpg


I am not sure that black is always Aogami, but you may see how characters on blades look (I hope it is about blade steel). Hope this will help.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
When fully hardened, white steel can be a little brittle so be sure to put the kind of edge on it that is appropriate for the intended application of the knife. I've been using shiroko and aoko bladed knives in the kitchen for many years.
 
I've found its best to take the blade and put a micro bevel on it right away before you even use it for anything. I do this with all my wood carving knives. Its especially important with the white and blue steel blades though. It will strengthen the edge to keep from seeing a knick or two develop after the initial use of the blade. The first time you buy from the Japan woodworker they send along an instruction pamphlet describing their recommendation which is pretty much what I just stated above so even they recommend it.

STR
 
HoB said:
.... it is one of my top choices for a dedicated kitchen knife.
Click to expand...

How often in general do you sharpen them?

I would also guess that it is an *extremely* fine grained steel (since it has practically no carbide formers), though I haven't seen any micrographs).
Click to expand...

Carbon is a strong carbide former, cementite is iron carbide. This is DIN 1.2206 which is basically White Steel 1A with 0.35% Cr :

din_12206_landes.jpg


Note even the biggest carbides (white globs) are 2-3 microns and most of them are around 1 micron. There is almost no segregation or clustering of carbides to form networks/chains. In contrast this is S60V a P/M stainless :

s60v_landes.jpg


Even with the P/M process there are so many carbides that they form heavy chains of clusters at times up to ten carbides intersecting. Landes notes that the edge stability of S60V is extremely low and DIN 1.2206 is extremely high. Images are from :

Messerklingen und Stahl
Autor: Roman Landes
2. Auflage, Wieland Verlag, Bruckmühl, Germany.
Copyright 2006

Note in regards to hardness and durability, the toughness of these steels (low alloy / high carbon) actually has a peak at high hardness, however it is very narrow. I have such knives at that hardness and they are very durable for their cross section. If you temper them to drop the hardness they actually get more brittle because there is a 500F embrittlement zone for such steels due to cementite lathing at grain boundries.

-Cliff
 
Blue has a higher alloy carbide content so has higher wear and corrosion resistance and lower edge stability and ease of grinding. It is also usually promoted as "tougher" but that is a vague word which can mean almost anything.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Messerklingen und Stahl
Autor: Roman Landes
2. Auflage, Wieland Verlag, Bruckmühl, Germany.
Copyright 2006
Click to expand...
Where did you purchase that book anyway? I'd like one, even if I can't read German.
 
What is edge stability?
How this related to usability of knife?
Is that book available in English and over Web?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
What is edge stability?
Click to expand...

Basically there are two general types of behaviors for edge blunting. If you grind to fine angles then very stable edges will blunt at a smooth and even pace as they just wear smoothly and they also have a very high initial sharpness. However the instable edges will suffer carbide tear out and blunt fast early on but slow down as the edge thicknes to the point it can support the carbides. I have discussed this in fair detail here :

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=71299

You can buy the book on amazon.de, just search for the title/author. Anyone seriously interested in steels/knives should have a copy. Reading german would be nice, but there is a wealth of data in pictorial form and you can interpret a lot of it just from extrapolating basic knowledge. Plus on-line translaters will make a lot of it readable you just get things like "first-cut" for initial sharpness and the order is often mixed up so it reads like yoda is dictitating when you translate it "Good first cut sharpeness is" and similar.

Alvin Johnston had been using the same term on rec.knives for a long time. At very low edge angles and profiles, meaning 4-8 degrees per side and < 0.005" thick, steels like ATS-34 had a low initial sharpness and edge retention compared to 1095. Landes has massive more detail as he has graphs where he maps out this performance in detail and shows pictures of the edges during various stages.

He also has a reference section in the back where he takes a bunch of steels, gives the composition and a micro-graphs and then rates them on 17 different performance aspects including corrosion resistance, wear resistance, initial sharpness, edge stability plus manufacturing issues. There is also a massive amount of information on the dynamics of cutting, heat treating, etc. . Plus there are cool pictures of knives and that is always nice.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Blue has a higher alloy carbide content so has higher wear and corrosion resistance and lower edge stability and ease of grinding. It is also usually promoted as "tougher" but that is a vague word which can mean almost anything.

-Cliff
Click to expand...

Blue also has some chromium in it for a little corrosion resistance. It is a little less brittle than white as well.
 
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