Knives in white steel

Fred, I asked the Japan Woodworker once a while back what was difference between the blue and the white and aside from the color and the carbon content they tell folks that the Blue steel is more brittle than the white. Thats what I was told anyway. I can't say one way or the other as both steels seem to me to be as good as any other steels I use. Just thought I'd pass that on. I've seen initial small chips on the edge if I don't first knock off the superficial weakened steel from the heat treating but once that is done they seem to me to be just fine. I have both and can't tell a difference in the way they work so to me its six of one half dozen of another in which one you get and use.

STR
 
STR said:
I asked the Japan Woodworker once a while back and they tell folks that the Blue steel is more brittle than the white.

Yes, and I have heard the exact opposite. The problem is that word is often used to mean anything, I have even heard makers call a steel "tough" because they found it difficult to grind. Here is a shot of DIN 1.2562 :

din_12562_landes.jpg


Which is basically blue steel with twice as much tungsten. Since tungsten is a primary carbide former at that level you would expect it to have about twice as much primary carbide as blue steel. However the calculation of carbide fractions is in general very complicated, but here there is only major carbide former so the composition ratio would be a decent starting estimate. In any case it shows what a dramatic effect it makes to add a significant amount of alloy carbide. According to Landes this significantly decreases the edge stability so you would expect blue steel to be used on knives with heavier edge patterns.

Note that the magnification here is also only half of that of the above DIN 1.2206. Image is also from :


Messerklingen und Stahl
Autor: Roman Landes
2. Auflage, Wieland Verlag, Bruckmühl, Germany.
Copyright 2006


-Cliff
 
This is product of Yasuki Speciality Steel and they may use differnet process like "adoped" from USSR Electro Slug Remelting process or something like this. And this may result in different microstructure even composition is same or similar. Like this Russian 110x18MSHD pretty much 440C by composition but afte Electro Slug Remeltina and Vacuum-Arc Remelting it is used as a stainless ball bearing steel in MIGs and SUs with 20 years warranty.

It will be nice to see actual Aogami and Shirogami microstructure.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Such processes would be expected to effect the purity, but I have not seen them advocated to make large changes to the carbide size/segregation. To achive this you need ingot -> P/M or similar.

-Cliff
 
maybe it's the tempering/lack of making the steels brittle. I wonder if the blades are left as hardened.
 
It is difficult to know, plus in general reports about brittleness are often vague, what was being done, what was the geometry, etc. . It is interesting that you can find reports which say that for example the white steel is tougher but the blue steel sharper and the exact reverse.

-Cliff
 
Japanese blades (for internal market at lease - not Spyderco or Fallkniven) usually harder and so need to be sharpened by water stones - I have problem sharpening some of my Higonokami until I start using water stones - there was entier thread about it a year or so ago.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I need to get some of these, especially at these prices. Would a sharpmaker be okay for sharpening these? I was planning to buy some diamond rods for the Sharpmaker sometime in the near future. What angle do you recommend for these?
 
hmm, I'm going to switch up my sharpening setup. Freehand on diamond plates for heavier metal removal, and going to freehand on rods from a DMT 600 to Spyderco Profiles, finishing on CrO. Maybe these blades would cause me worries in sharpening. Although I'm switching from plates/flat hones to rods for more control and to work with less force for the same pressure on the edge.
 
cerulean said:
Garrett Wade has Kiridashi folders on sale here. They also sell a brass handled Higonokami.


I just bought 2 from garrett. Any idea which steel they are?
 
Bayoublaster said:
I need to get some of these, especially at these prices. Would a sharpmaker be okay for sharpening these? I was planning to buy some diamond rods for the Sharpmaker sometime in the near future. What angle do you recommend for these?

It is not a rule - I have several knives with Shirogami and had no problem sharpening them on Sharpmaker (including Kenetsune available here in different stores) - diamond and then medium and fine. I had this problem only with one Higonokami, which require water stone.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
What's the best way to find some of these Japanese knives? I tried different key words but didn't come up with much.
 
This is a cool site:

Japanese Knife Direct

A few of the knifemakers use white steel with traditional Japanese forging techniques and forms. None for $50, but more than a few between $100-$200. If nothing else, lots of pretty pictures. :-)
 
That's a great site. I've been there before. I was asking more specifically about the higonokami type knife.
 
Kanetsune has some presence here. However best place to get good Japanese knives and blades or even Shirogami-Aogami-Suminogashi blanks - www.dick.biz
(as well as exotic Australian wood, mammoth ivory...)

Thanks, Vassili.
 
BTW, Japanese knife manufacturers has much more to offer. Their modern PM steels outperforms their traditional old Shirogami and Aogami.

ZDP-189 for relatively small blades and SRS-15 for big knives - last one not noticed yet as ZDP-189, but not less amaizing! HighSpeed - Stainless PM Steel. I am very impressed by Samurai Bowie by G-Sakai. To bad Spyderco do not export it to US...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
That site was neat but unfortunately I can't read German. I've seen a lot of Japanese knives online and like several of the companies. I really like that G-Sakai Bosen Enkuto you have on your site Нож. I just was wondering about the more traditional ones you showed.
 
Bayoublaster said:
That site was neat but unfortunately I can't read German.
I also can't read German, so I have to read English version of this site...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
STR said:
Fred, I asked the Japan Woodworker once a while back what was difference between the blue and the white and aside from the color and the carbon content they tell folks that the Blue steel is more brittle than the white. Thats what I was told anyway. I can't say one way or the other as both steels seem to me to be as good as any other steels I use. Just thought I'd pass that on. I've seen initial small chips on the edge if I don't first knock off the superficial weakened steel from the heat treating but once that is done they seem to me to be just fine. I have both and can't tell a difference in the way they work so to me its six of one half dozen of another in which one you get and use.

STR

Truthfully, I wouldn't pay too much attention to Japan Woodworker about cutlery. I buy from them wholesale and consider them to be poorly informed about knives. They are really woodworking tool people. Nothing personal. Nice folks and nice knives. There is no color difference, by the way, except in the paper wrapper in which they arrive from the mill.

White steel is the basic hard Japanese carbon steel. Blue has more alloying elements designed to make it slightly more ductile, more abrasion resistant and even more corrosion resistant (chromium.) This is what all the Japanese knife makers tell us. Blue is considered a premium over white steel by every one of them. The top of the line traditional japanese knives are always blue steel. The basic models are usually white steel forge welded to iron (kasumi.)

The differences are subtle and experienced mostly by sushi chefs who use them all day long and sharpen them every evening. A sushi chef will tell you that the blue blades are slightly better at retaining an edge and slightly harder to sharpen. They will tell you that the edges chip less frequently than with white steel blades. The hardness should be about the same (RC62-64) but the blue has slightly more abrasion resistance. A blue knife will last longer for them and is therefore worth the extra cost. Every sushi chef will tell you the same thing. That isn't a scientific analysis but it is consistent from user to user.

My own experiences with yanagis made of both materials is similar to yours. They are hard to tell apart. I have a white kasumi style and a blue honyaki style yanagi and both have full bevel edges (togidashi.) They cut exactly the same for me and sharpen the same for me. However, I sharpen them every few months, not every day. For me and probably for you, the kasumi white steel is more than adequate.

The one characteristic I do notice easily is the difference in corrosion resistance. A white blade will begin corroding the second it touches food while the blue blade will not. My blue knife still looks like bare steel. I wash them and dry them immediately after use. The kasumi knife (iron on the outside of the blade) has darkened normally, as one would expect.
 
iceaxe said:
This is a cool site:

Japanese Knife Direct

A few of the knifemakers use white steel with traditional Japanese forging techniques and forms. None for $50, but more than a few between $100-$200. If nothing else, lots of pretty pictures. :-)

A very good place to buy knives. Koki is the one who put the Seki Cut group together. They ship reliably and very quickly. They ship via air mail and the Japanese postal system is quite good and fast. I recommend them highly.
 
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