Knives that no one uses. I don't get it.

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Kodiak PA

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I was thinking this morning that knives that are mainly produced to be stared at and admired are usually made of more expensive materials. Damascus, silver inlays, rare stones, etc. I guess more expensive material do not mean better material for actual cutting.

How can one prove that these knives can even act the way a knife is supposed to? You could take a persian dagger, make the blade out of chrome and if it sits there for 100 years it will be as pretty and shiny as the day it was born but it wouldn't perform the way a knife is suppose to. How can one prove the edge holding ability of any damascus blade that sits in a safe? How do we gage the ability of a custom folder not to fail if we don't use it?

My feeling is this. I would much prefer a using knife over a viewing knife. As man's oldest tool, a knife has to prove itself and how can an art knife or even a nicely made hunter do that if its owner is too afraid to use it? I know there are other collectibles that are made just for looking at isn't a tool made to be used?

When we get an art knife, are we just taking the makers word for the quality of the knife? We test a lot of knives here guys and post the results....it seems like the pretty ones collect nothing but stares and dust. Don't get wrong...I have drooled over many a knife that the ownere would never even think of using and would not have minded to own this at all.

Is there any way to objectively judge a knife that no one uses? We never take the word of a maker from a using knife....we use it and let them know if the knife can perform.

Just some thoughts I had on a Saturday morning. It is not meant to be controversial but does anyone else think the way I do or have I been around the bears too long?
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Regards,

Greg Mete
Kodiak Alaska




[This message has been edited by Kodiak PA (edited 10-21-2000).]
 
I think you may be missing the whole art knife concept... These knives are purchased as a collectible item --- To be admired and looked at, not used. I guess it would be kind of like going out and spending $2500.00 on a painting. You know in advance that you will not be able to use it for anything, but it is very rewarding to own and admire.

As far as how an art knife would function as a user, who knows? In reality, I would almost bet that most art knife collector's could care less. But, one thing to keep in mind is this... Most of the guys who make art knives didn't just jump right into making these fabulous blades. A lot of them started out, and some still continue, making cheaper user knives. Take Darrel Ralph for instance, he can make art knives with the best of them and he also makes one helluva user knife... The point being, these guys know their trade, and I seriously doubt if they cut any corners because they know the knife will not be used...

That's just my two cents....



[This message has been edited by GeneL74 (edited 10-21-2000).]
 
This sort of question comes up any time any utilitarian object transcends the mere mundane and achieves artistic merit. Artistic merit is value above and beyond material or functional worth that comes from the objects pure technical perfection or from its ascetic appeal.

Why do I prefer to listen to a radio station playing some nice music instead of the static between stations? It's all sound isn't it? But few if any would pay $15 for a CD of static. In fact, we pay a lot of money for CDs and CD players because the don't have static. What makes music more valuable than static?

Of what use is any object of art? A Monet painting just sort of hangs on the wall doing nothing but occupying space. Oh, maybe you could use it to cover that unfortunate hole in the wall from last time you were cleaning your guns. But, otherwise, it has no functional value at all. And the material value? A few square feet of dried out old canvas that's covered with cracked old paint. The paint's probably got lead in it. You'd have to pay to dispose of it. I suppose you could burn the frame to heat the house. So, what do you think? A buck? Maybe? No, probably not even that. So, why did the Portland Art Museum recently pay $5,600,000 for something that has no functional value and a material value of less than one dollar? Because the object's ascetic appeal and technical perfection transcend its functional and material value, or lack thereof, and achieve artistic merit, apparently a lot of it.

Occasionally, there is a knife with technical perfection or ascetic appeal that transcends functional and material value. Occasionally, there is a knife that achieves artistic merit.



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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
This is good....I like hearing other people's opinions.

Let me ask another question. Suppose we did use those collectibles? Why couldn't the intrinsic value of that knife still be worth the same? Look at the article Ed Fowler did in Knives 2001. Aobut an old bowie knife that was used and used hard. It has proven itself beyound a shadow of a doubt and is obviously worth something today. In my mind that knife is worth a lot more than a knife that has never been used. I know the "laws" of collecting don't allow that...but knives are tools--desinged to be used, not paintings that were designed just to be stared at.

I guess to me, seeing a knife that has been used can be appreciated more.

I don't think I am missing your point, Gene....but if it was me and I was collecting a $2K art knife....I would care that it could perform just like that guy with the 59 Corvette wants to know his car could perform even if he doesn't use it. I am not even sure there is a 59 Corvette.
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Regards,

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~Greg Mete~
Kodiak Alaska

JKM-Chai
 
I think Kodiak is getting at the point that knives were originally designed to be used for some physical chore, unlike a painting. When you take something that was originally intended to do work, and you decorate it to the point where it is no longer sensible to use as a tool, the object has lost it's original purpose. There is nothing wrong with this though. Its purpose has just changed that's all. But to really appreciate an art knife, you probably have to appreciate the regular working knife--otherwise it would be the equivalant of a decorated paper hole puncher or beautiful electric pencil sharpener. If you think a 5000 dollar file worked, titanium and pearl inlayed paper hole puncher is a stupid item, it's not really different than an art knife. Both were originally tools made for a purpose, and the purpose has now changed because of its cost and appearance.
Personally I tend to agree with Kodiak in that when I look at an art knife, I see elements that seem to contradict. On the one hand you have a nice looking blade with perfect edge geometry, and a well designed handle, but at the same time the perfect blade is polished so well that cutting something with it will invariably ruin it's finish. Or you have a handle that looks and feels so perfect and secure, but you will never actually take the knife outside and get to use the handle in a situation where it's design would be helpful.
 
This is just my own personal opinion on the matter.... I love art whether it be in the form of a painting, a tattoo, a knife, or simply a beautiful photo that someone took with a descent camera...

I guess my love for art is what allows me to see something other then a knife.... When I look at them, I DO NOT see a tool. I see something more along the lines of a beautiful sculpture, something that a master craftsman has spent countless hours perfecting... I, myself, can really appreciate and understand that...

Now, if I could just hit the damn lottery
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General:
In a much more intelligent way than I could explain, what you said is what I basically mean.

Gene, your last statement makes a lot of sense. I thought about what you said for a bit and see your point. Sort of like seeing the forrest through the trees.

Thanks....I appreciate the input.

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~Greg Mete~
Kodiak Alaska

JKM-Chai
 
Hello Kodiak PA,

I usually don't make art-work-knives, but using knives. But I do understand that a knife can be made in such a special way, and get such a special meaning, it would be dis-honour for the knife and owner if it would be used.
Take people like Larry Fuegen and Gil Hibben. Do they make user-knives? You wouldn't dare skin a mose with a Real Larry fuegen howler, regardless if it could be possible.
If I had a real Bob Loveless, it would stay in a closet.
My first knives were using knives, still they mean much more to me than a cutting tool.
My first spyderco was a saint to me !

On the other hand, Some people don't know when to quit in the collector-business.
Take Franklin mint. They say they sell real knives...To me they sell junk. They would be better off making using-knives.
I think you must first be able to make a cutting tool, then a presentable knife, then artwork. Not the otherway around.
You MUST first understand what kind of a tool a knife is, you MUST understand it's essence, before you can elevate it to art.

And art is not neccesairy a knife with loads of expensive stuff worked in it. Art is a knife which looks really good, and is really a beauty to look at.
If you need a lot of stuff on the knife to make it look good, O.K. for me, but it's like a woman. You hang her full with juwelery, her real beauty does not increase or decrease one bit, just her price increases bigtime. And, in my opinion, the more juwelery, the less inner beauty. This is a rude generalisation, but it's one which actually works.

Hope you understand what I am trying to say, since my native language in Dutch.

greetz, Bart.

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"If the world wouldn't SUCK, we'd all fall off !"

member of the BKS
http://www.expage.com/belgianknives
 
I don't usually get into this posts, but I like it when everyone says their thoughts without any war, and makes really good reading!!!
My thoughts on this are I buy some knives for artistic admiration, and some I buy to use no matter what they cost. I buy customs, and carry them, and use them, and they are from knifemakers who tell me to use them, and not put them in my safe. That tells me that they have faith in their workmanship for them to be used, and not to just look at. I enjoy using them, and seeing how well they perform over some of my production knives.
What I do when I order a knife is decide if I am buying it to carry, and use, or buying it for my collection. Then that is what I do, and the ones I buy to use, I don't plan on getting rid of anyway, so don't care about future value, but regardless, I always take good care of them because they are costing me more than production models.
I do my knives like my guns. Even though I spent a lot for a Sharps, I still take it out and shoot it on occasion, because I bought for its beauty, and also for how well it shoots.

Sorry for the long post.

Just my .02 cents rounded off to a buck.

Larry
 
Bart: English may be a second language for you but you made an excellent point. Thanks for the reply.

Larry, I agree, it is nice to discuss something and respect all the points being made.

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~Greg Mete~
Kodiak Alaska

JKM-Chai
 
I was walking around a gun/knife show with a fellow forumite today and we discussed this same thing a little. To me, I can not justify an "art" knife. Just like I can't justify paying to have a painted piece of paper hanging on my wall. Maybe it is because I have a limited income being a college student with a part time job. I just can't buy anything I can't use. Now there are somethings I will buy that may get no use or very little use, but they are still usable, plain and simple. I am getting a Carson M4(hopefully) from a local dealer. I really doubt it will totally replace some other knives as a daily carry knife. but it will be something I carry on occasion, maybe a dressier situation. I agree with Greg on his point that knives are meant to be used. Even though some art knives are totally beautiful, I could nevr justify to myself the price of the knife just to let it set on the shelf. Although I did make some nice knife stands in the cabinet shop this weekend
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Anyways, i buy knives to use, but will always admire the artistic beauty of art knives while respecting those who love to collect them.
 
To me Ed Fowler's knives are as artistic (or more so), than many knives ornated with gold, ivory, or engraving. I think that Greg probably feels the same way. Artisty and ornamenting are not neccesarrily the same thing. Art is in how materials are used, not in which materials are used. At least that is my opinion. I believe that there is nothing at all wrong with buying a knife for no other purpose than eye candy. I also believe there is nothing at all wrong with buying a knife entirely based on its functional utility. I think it is exceptionally great when you can buy a knife that is both appealing to you visuallaly and functionally.

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Lynn Griffith-Knifemaker

griffithknives.com
GriffithKN@aol.com
Griffith Knives Forum
 
Here's my 11.2 cents...

Normally many knives that can be considered art are made as knives that can be used. Given, there are some makers out there who make things that will not act like a knife, but much of the worthwhile stuff should have the craftsmanship and sturdiness to allow it to be used if the situation ever arose.

If by some unknown miracle, a brand new sword from Sumitani Masamine in superb polish and new fittings appeared in my lap...errh well I'd die of a heart attack and shock most likely, but if I didn't, I would probably not do anything with it. Why? Because his works are masterpieces, and I'd want to preserve it as much as possible. If I were to use it for tameshigiri, I would likely get scuffs on the blade and if I screwed up bad enough, I may bend it. If I were to remove scuffs and scratches, I would have to get it well-polished again, particularly if there's any chips on the edge from real serious goofs.

And that polish would cost me a fortune, and it would take a very long time before I would ever see the sword again. And when I get the sword back, even though just a TEENCY WEENCY bit of material was removed, it's still less of a sword than when I had it in full proper polish the first time around.

When it comes to knives it's a little different, because you aren't focusing on the same goal...but if you scratch up or ding a very high-end knife, who is going to fix that? And at what price? And will it retain the value of the knife?

Sometimes people buy it as a tribute to "art through craftsmanship" I guess, that's what I'd call it at least.

Sorry I had to drag the Japanese-style stuff into the picture, just the way I view it.

Shinryû.
 
Art knives are for peaple who drive SUV'S but never leave the blacktop.

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-Marine, Peace Officer, Gunsite EW1 Graduate.
 
I think that there is a great deal to be said about the fundamental difference between "collectors" and "enthusiasts", regardless of the hobby in question.

The distinction is one in which many factors come into play, but at it's most basic level, in my opinion, "collectors" find great satisfaction in merely OWING the item and admiring it from a intellectual point of view, whereas "enthusiasts" choose to EXPERIENCE first-hand the many aspects that an item presents to them.

Here are a few examples off the top of my head:

Car COLLECTORS: Buy 'em, shine 'em, and lock 'em away.
Car ENTHUSIASTS: Buy 'em, restore 'em, drive 'em, tune 'em up, and show 'em off.

Comic Book COLLECTORS: Buy 'em, protect 'em, and put 'em away.
Comic Book ENTHUSIASTS: Buy 'em, read 'em, share 'em with friends, sell 'em to get more.

I think you get the point I'm trying to make ....
smile.gif





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“Belül szívem hibád az örökkévaló erõs vastartalmú sok vasaló és orvosság."


Crushing the weak since 1970 .... the Demon has spoken.
 
I think that there is a great deal to be said about the fundamental difference between "collectors" and "enthusiasts", regardless of the hobby in question.

The distinction is one in which many factors come into play, but at it's most basic level, in my opinion, "collectors" find great satisfaction in merely OWING the item and admiring it from a intellectual point of view, whereas "enthusiasts" choose to EXPERIENCE first-hand the many aspects that an item presents to them.

Here are a few examples off the top of my head:

Car COLLECTORS: Buy 'em, shine 'em, and lock 'em away.
Car ENTHUSIASTS: Buy 'em, restore 'em, drive 'em, tune 'em up, and show 'em off.

Comic Book COLLECTORS: Buy 'em, protect 'em, and put 'em away.
Comic Book ENTHUSIASTS: Buy 'em, read 'em, share 'em with friends, sell 'em to get more.

I think you get the point I'm trying to make ....
smile.gif





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“Belül szívem hibád az örökkévaló erõs vastartalmú sok vasaló és orvosság."


Crushing the weak since 1970 .... the Demon has spoken.
 
Great subject. Thanks for bringing it up, Greg. There's nothing wrong with admiring and desiring and paying lots of money for an art knife, even if it won't perform as well as a low priced factory model. I'm not saying that art knives don't perform well, but I suspect it's true in some cases. Doesn't matter. If you like it, you like it. Whether the reasons are related to performance, craftsmanship, aesthetics, whatever. I, personally, like knives for what they can do performance wise. As was previously stated, I see a lot of beauty in a Fowler knife. Beauty which is not realized if the knife is not used. I admire the beauty in an art knife, but more so if I know that it would be a good, reliable companion and a pleasure to use. Others may not see it this way, but that's fine. They're not wrong and I'm not wrong.

I don't mind using an expensive knife, whether it's $500, $1000, $1500, whatever. However, if I make the decision to carry and use a $1000 bowie it's because I think it's worth it in the performance department. I wouldn't scratch up and ruin the looks of an expensive art knife if the performance payoff wasn't there. No reason to. Also, I wouldn't use something like a Loveless because I feel the high prices they command these days revolves around collector value and not performance value. Therefore, it's cost is not justified through it's use as would be the case with a Fowler, for example. My 2 cents.

Ever notice that people will ask you to throw in your 2 cents, but will only give you a penny for your thoughts?

Pete

 
Guess I could have avoided the above rambling and just said that, for me, performance is EVERYTHING.....

Verification of expected performance is attained only through actual testing, whether it be knives or jet aircraft or anything else. An art knife that hasn't been tested or a steel that hasn't been tested is still an unknown.


Pete


[This message has been edited by farmer (edited 10-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by farmer (edited 10-21-2000).]
 
Great topic.

Here is another twist. I have several knives in my collection that I would never dare use. Its not because they are art knives per se, but rather because they are several hundreds of years old. Once gone these knives can never be replaced. I feel I owe it to posterity to admire and maintain these knives to the best of my ability.


 
Ah! A very good point Not2Sharp ...... respecting and honouring the historical significance of a blade. Truly admirable ...
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“Belül szívem hibád az örökkévaló erõs vastartalmú sok vasaló és orvosság."


Crushing the weak since 1970 .... the Demon has spoken.
 
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