Knives: Tools or Weapons?

I am a big proponent of the "knives are tools" viewpoint. Seems to me that a 3" folding knife would be waaaaaay down on the list of things to use to kill somebody, somewhere between 2X4 with a nail in it and Bic pen. Its just not wehre my interests lie.

Apparently many people seem to think that their knives are weapons that also happen to be useful for other stuff too. Just looking at how various knives are marketed and designed makes it clear that people are buying them due to quasi-military fantasies; and some makers are doing everything they can to perpetuate this.

I suppose that "commando dreams" are OK in theory, as long as they keep these people out of the real army. I find it a bit upsetting that I can't carry a small folder everywhere, partially because the guys who wear cammo to the mall and have a big black macho knife which they claim is "a tool" make all of us look bad.

If you think a knife is a weapon, then call it that. Don't cause trouble for me by claiming that it's a tool when it obviously isn't. Some military wannabe who wears combat boots in a restaurant saying that his $4 Ninja Death Blade is a tool would be like a gang member claiming that his gun is for hunting and target shoting.

Just to clarify, I no problem with people who choose to carry knives for martial purposes, as long as they do it responsibly and don't claim that their weapons are the same as my tools.
 
It is difficult to explain, to non-knife people, the reason that I carry my knives. I consider my EDC knives as tools that are carried on my person for whatever tasks that may arise. Like M@thew says, "It's better to have a knife and not need it, than to need a knife and not have it".
I consider them weapons, ONLY IN A LIFE OR DEATH SITUATION. The chances of that happening are very, very slim. In today's society, I would rather be safe than sorry.
As a truck driver, I am constantly on the road, traveling through familiar territory sometimes and sometimes not so familiar. I have a friend (fellow trucker) that was assaulted at a truck stop and what saved him from being robbed or worse was the 3" blade that he carries with him. Ask a non-knife person, what he/she would do if something like this happened to them.

In my opinion, my knives are tools, definitely. Weapons? Only if necessary.;)
 
For several years I have been considering an article about friendly knives. I have found a few that look friendly, unfortunately they did not pass the cut test that I feel is equally important. How about a contest for friendly knives, then when the winner or winners are selected a poster child using a friendly knife trimming a marshmellow roasting stick? (Only ideas, the nature can be what ever is felt most appropriate by those involved.
Good Thread!
 
If someone is stupid enough to carry one golf club and say it is a weapon then he deserves to go to jail. If I wanted to carry and iron as a weapon I would put the rest in the trunk. If that was not an option I would know the iron number and when someone asked I would say it is there from when I went to the driving range to work on my whatever iron game.
 
Without a doubt knives have the potential to be used as weapons and I have been in situations (facing aggressive dogs) where I have been prepared to use my knife as a weapon in a pinch. It is interesting to note, however, that once I was riding my bike and a pack of dogs chased me, I out pedaled them and then took out my Case Trapper and cut down a sapling which went on to be my favorite walking stick and dog whacker for the next five years. My point is that even when one needs a weapon, a knife is often better used a tool for fabricating a club or spear than being used as an actual weapon itself.
 
Probably the most "friendly" knife would be a Buck 110 in a black leather sheath on the belt or perhaps a SAK.
 
Originally posted by slicer
everytime he showed a CRKT, Smith & Wesson, Kershaw or other "modern" "tactical" type of folder it was described as an Armor peircing blade
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I'd think an axe can do that "armor piercing" thing much better... I don't hear anyone call any axe as armor piercing...
Yes, we must admit that the press does not help distributing the correct ideas to the masses. At times I think they only spread misinformation.
 
I agree the Buck 110 is the classic tool knife. Still, some people would be scared to death of it and it is too long to be legal in more than a few jurisdictions. I think it is funny that the majority of the people who would choose a knife as a weapon and ponder points like a finger guard and quality lock are not the ones who would be using the knife as an offensive weapon in the first place.
 
One other point, I would like to second the notion that not all anti-knife laws are enacted by "liberals". Remember that the current and most likely permanent restrictions on carrying knives on planes were enacted by George W. Bush and were strongly supported by his even more conservative attorney general, John Ashcroft. I should note, however, that the administration was unwilling to use 9/11 as a cover to restrict gun laws. I think that demonstrates the power of the gun lobby versus the knife lobby, not the personal philosophy of politicians. I should also note that with the current extra strict regulations in airports, the most restrictive airpport, I have seen so far is Columbia, South Carolina where one cannot carry a knife in any part of the building. In contrast, two northern, democratic cities in which I recently traveled, Cleveland and St. Louis make it clear that pocket knives are legal in the public lobby before one gets to the restricted area. So I guess,some Midwestern liberals are more willing to acknowledge that a knife is a tool than at least some conservative Southerners.
 
The great thing about knife is it is BOTH a weapon AND a tool. More useful that a gun, more interesting than a hammer. (Hammerforums anyone?)

There are three types of knives: Fighting, Combat, and Utility. Fighting knives are of course; weapons, and utility knives are tools. Combat blades are the great (or not so great) compromise between the two. They are built for fighting but used for working. Or one could say they are utility knives that are ready for the rare fight. Sorry to burst any bubbles here: but "Tactical" means "Combat." If knives were tools-only, then we would ALL be using SAK's, Buck 110's, and X-acto knives. Do you need a "tool" that automatically opens? Do you need one-hand opening or a pocket clip? Do you need a bombproof lock? An INFI nuke-proof blade? Boy Scouts did just fine without these for years. What is wrong with an ax or a crowbar? Did Jim Bowie use "tools" or weapons-with-other-uses?

Let's face it, Many, if not most, of us here are knife nuts only because of the recent "tactical" fad. I, most certainly, started my current interest in knives, not from my Boy Scout days, but because a BM/Elistwitz design caught my eye. It did so because of the self-defense factor. Now, I bought my first tac folder because I didn't want to destroy my SAK while cutting boxes (and it was cheap, a $13 POS). The first quality knife I bought myself (the SAK was a gift) was a 4" CS Voyager that is has proven itself a great work knife but has a HELL-of-a fighting factor.

"Stinger," kubotan, kerabit. Weapons? Hell yes. How many of us carry flashlights? Mini-mags are great fist-loads and kubotans. How many people carry D cell Flashlights that have a dent from some jerk's head while a Photon II is used light the sidewalk because of the gadget factor and pretty color?

Humans have only one natural predator - PEOPLE. A man has a right to protect himself. The best part above weapons is one can wait to fight. Today it is too legally dangerous to defend one's self without CLEAR understanding (that can be explained, no "I had a feeling...") that the other means harm. Unarmed, by the time clear intent is know, it is too late. A weapon gives one the chance to wait to the last minute. And look at crime rates in CCW states. Criminals prefer unarmed victims

Tool? Weapon? A knife is both. And to deny one is to discredit the other.

BTW, I have replies to other posts, but I shall keep these separate for convenience or clarity of topic. Thank you for understanding.
 
Originally posted by Peter Atwood I often read here that knife knuts regard their knives as tools and not weapons.
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Whenever I try to explain this to non-nuts, I get a "yeah-right" response. I think most people can smell the smoke blowing up their arse. They KNOW knives are dangerous. Whether they are right or not it is what they believe. Try converting a Jew to Islam. Beliefs are powerful things. Key rule to remember (and I WISH to GOD it wasn't true) is this: Perceptions are reality.
Originally posted by one2gofst
I think the most important thing to show the public is that knife owners and carriers are generally responsible citizens.
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Best and only way to go about it. I just need to work and not being too defensive about stabbing accusations or lose my temper when explaining for the 100th time that I am not going to kill anyone.
Originally posted by glockman99
Both or neither. Is a beautiful "art knife" a tool or a weapon? No, it's ART. I think it would depend on how the knife is being used at the time, that defines it.:).
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“Art” knives are still weapons, like swords in a museum. The problem is that them being on display makes them no longer “tools.” I have never seen an art screwdriver.

People are often fascinated by tools (look at what you can put on your key-chain nowadays) but we idolize weapons. Knife collections, sword collections, gun collections. Something basic in us all yearns for weapons. Many believe they can’t have one because of laws or “the skill is too hard/ takes to long to learn, etc....” How many anti-gun spokes(wo)men have aimed bodyguards? They don’t really hate guns, they hate US having something they DON’T.
Originally posted by Roadrunner
I think that I'm with the majority in this thread, that the user's intent is what's important, not what the individual decides to use as a weapon. The public's fear of 'weapons' is misguided, so what we really need to work on is getting people back to being responsible for their own actions. Unfortunately I see no easy way of going about that, at least not effectively.
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Very true. The only remedy is to arm the vast majority of the population. People will learn responsibility and respect quickly
Originally posted by JGardnerA
They are whatever you want them to be. My Mini Commander might have been designed to be a weapon, but I don't use it as such. I carry my knives as tools. Most people just assume that they're weapons.
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Whatever YOU want them to be? Unfortunately we live in a society. We have to deal with others and have a responsibility to others around us.
I was showing some friends my Calypso Jr, and one of them said, "I don't know why you carry that, you couldn't stab anyone with that short blade." A lot of people are obsessed with the idea of carrying weapons, these people tend to watch too much TV.
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Don’t go swimming during a thunderstorm. First, who would WANT to, second, how often does lightning hit water? Betcha lightning was on your mind first thing when I mentioned swimming during a storm. How many “Acts of God” that NEVER happen do we avoid everyday? At work, I need to wear a hard hat when I am on top of a building. Why? So I break my neck instead of my head when I fall? People take chances with their lives everyday, but oddly we worry not about the car wrecks we avoid daily, but about risks that are so unlikely they make headlines on the rare occasion they do happen. Knives are rare enough to overreact to.

Something to add: When I was a student and working at Wal-mart, I saw a man walk in with a gun on his hip. He wasn’t threatening but I was going to either tell the manager (the smart thing, but time consuming) or ask him to leave the gun in the car (I remember at the time thinking I had a death wish). Then he turned around and I saw he was with the armored car picking up the money. I remember clearly thinking: Why can’t I have one too? I didn’t so much mind the gun, I felt naked not having one myself. I did not think I would feel that way until I was in the situation. I wonder how many of our fellow citizens are not really worried about OUR knives, but about their lack of knives or defense thereof.

Jealousy may play a role too. They had big problems as a kid over a knife, and here we are playing hero, coming to the rescue of fair maidens whose $20 nails can’t open a box, flaunting how skilled we are, how easy are task are, being an everyday MacGuyver and James Bond. Never once do they stop and think we are ADULTS acting RESPONSIBLY.

I am sure there is more to this, but it is late, so I shall call it a night.
 
Clint, good post. i would like to comment on your last point. "Women who are unable to open a box with their $20 nails". This is true. however. most people would not spend and carry a $20 knife. It is the sad truth. Makes me crazy. That is why I think it is important for knuts like us to show others the uses of quality knives and even give them to others. Think of it this way. In a world where most walk people might think it folly to drive when they can easily walk. After they ride in a car a dozen times, or better yet drive a car for a couple weeks, they will see the benefit of a car and likely seek to own one. The same thing is true with knives. And, the more knife owners the safer our passion is.
 
I think that some knives are defiently designed as weapons. Probably the best example here would be a bayonet. A bayonet usually dosn't have anything near a sharp edge, therefore giving it 0 utility value. It's simply meant for killing people. On the other hand, I don't see how anyone could consier a small SAK a weapon. It's design is for pure utility. Sure, it could be used as a weapon but, that is not it's intention. To be honest, anything can be used as a weapon. There are a lot of things that are often used as weapons that we never think about: screwdrivers, hammers, pens, etc. I don't consider any of the knives I carry weapons because none of them were designed as such. A Spyderco Civilian is a weapon simply because it was designed as such, and has little to no utility value. On the other hand, something like a Spyderco Delica is a nice simple utility knife. Any knife can be used as a weapon but, I wouldn't consider your average utility folder a weapon. A knife is a tool so long as you use it as such.
 
Coould it be that the answer to this nagging question is really
a matter of education verus intuition?

A knife is the only tool that man has used since we climbed down
out of the trees. It is a part of who we are , what makes us human.
Our ticket out of the jungle if you will. The knife made it possible
for man to progess, learn and survive when our bodies alone don't
offer enough advantage to keep us in the gene pool. It level the playing
field.

As such I'd have to wonder that somewhere in our primal memories the
knife is seen instinctivly as a weapon because for so many centries it
was the only real weapon avaiilable. True , the knife has always been
a tool, but when so often millions suffered horrible death at business
end of a knife those memories will take precedent over all else.

As we all know ..............
A knife IS both tool and weapon in the same instant in time.

Our problem today is our society is so techical we don't need
knives as we used to so millions never learn that knife is a tool.
 
I think Tightwad has really nailed it! The problem as I see it is that most people are living lives and working jobs that just don't require a knife most of the time. We have moved from a primarily agrarian and manufacturing culture into one that is based much more on services and information. There is now more of a disconnect between simple tools and the general populace than ever before.

So now you get this situation where large, or at least VOCAL numbers of people can suddenly decide that the most basic and essential tool is something that it is not. A threat. And they can base these attitudes on the limited information that they are getting from the media, much of it scary and negative. There is undoubted much more to it than that but I think this is one important aspect.

Of course, an unfortunate side of this also is that a few of those very knives that they perceive a being a possible threat are indeed just that. There are at least a couple of stabbings every week in this general area alone. It infuriates me every time I read about them in the paper but they continue. So I can't deny that there really is a legitimate reason for folks to claim that there is some kind of "knife problem". But I also think that it is absolutely beyond the ability of anyone to stop it. Recently enacted legislation like that in Boston which says nothing over 2 1/2 inches is totally absurd and unenforceable.
 
My son (he's 7) calls those in the military. . .Jeep Men. Don't ask me why ~ we've tried to figure it out. . .and we're still stumped !

Well. . .I'm a Jeep Man and in my job. . .I carry 4 blades. 2 are tools and 2 are weapons.

The first is a large fixed utility and the second is a medium folder utility. Both are tools. They're used for either large tasks or small - medium tasks. Or what I consider camp chores (i.e., chopping wood, cutting cord, etc.).

The third knife is called a Close Quarters fixed and the fourth a auto folder. Simply, the task at hand is to use the blade in a offensive or defensive role. Specifically, to do another physical harm.

Could I use my utility knives as weapons ? Sure. But not unless it's a last resort situation. Effective as a weapon ? Yes. But, if given the opportunity ~ I'll use the utility blades as tools.

Could I use the other 2 as utility blades ? Sure. But prefer to use something that designed to do those specific tasks. Are the Close Quarters fixed and the auto folder effective weapons ? Damn right they are. . .that's what they were designed and build to be. . .specifically, to do another harm.

Personally, there are 2 things at play.

1. Any weapon can be used against another.

2. The person with the blade can choose to use the knife for it's intended purpose. . .a "weapon" or a "tool."
 
Originally posted by Peter Atwood
So I can't deny that there really is a legitimate reason for folks to claim that there is some kind of "knife problem". But I also think that it is absolutely beyond the ability of anyone to stop it. Recently enacted legislation like that in Boston which says nothing over 2 1/2 inches is totally absurd and unenforceable.
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True enough.
But lets say the legistlation banned all knives for all people.
Then,
a) people will still have knives, even though it's illegal
b) people who don't have the knives and still has the will to cause harm will choose something else. If a bunch of people chooses rolled up newspapers to hurt others, then guess what? the same vocal group who lobbies to ban knives and guns will start banning newspapers.
Is this rational? No.
I believe that if you ban too many things, you just make them yearn for it more and they'll get it through illegitmate means.
 
Had some spare time last month and wrote this "demo" press release to be distributed to local media prior to a knife show.
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Take this simple test:

1. What did you use to butter your toast for breakfast this morning?
2. What do you use to peel your apple at a picnic?
3. What did you use to prepare the salad for last night's dinner?
4. What do you use to slice your favourite home-made bread?
5. What is a carved and jewelled work art?
6. What is a unique and impressive locally-made corporate gift?
7. What is your better half's favourite kitchen utensil?

(The correct answer to each question is, of course, "A knife.")

The artisans participating in the Xth annual XXXX Knifemakers Show & Sale represent a respected group of North American artists who rarely receive the world wide recognition and admiration they deserve. Other artists such as jewellers, potters, glassblowers, painters, etc. band together for representation, exchanging ideas, and staging shows. However, as an individual discipline, only custom knifemakers can gather two hundred artists together with a thousand buyers and do it again and again all over North America. Yet our (NAME OF REGION) representatives remain virtually invisible to the general public.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

The media (particularly the print media) is as "anti-knife" as it is "anti-gun". I figured that at least I could get some news editor to read this knife show press release and realize, "Hey, you're right - I use a knife every day!"

Small steps.
 
Could some one define a weapon? Almost all object around us can be used to inflict damage. I can kill someone with my shoelace for crying out loud!!! :mad:
 
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