- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,461
I have had an idea for a long time which should address the concerns of those who view knock offs as a bad thing. The way they are being handled now is a bad thing and like it or not they will be around for a long time. Here are some of the problems and why knock offs are so prevalent.
1) The makers can not afford to patent each and every design they make. It adds to the cost and they simply cannot afford it or raise the price on their knives. Plus it does not offer them much protection anyway.
2) Manufacturers have nearly the same problem. Unless the knife uses something very new and specific to them it is not worth the extra money to patent it or the design.
3) Even when a patent is issued this does not stop the companies from making knock offs. The reason is that it is very costly to go after them and the result is not worth the effort or the money put into it.
So how can we overcome each of these problems?
I had planned to wait till the Blade Show to reveal this but due to the earlier thread on Dragon Forge I feel forced to bring it out. This is one of the subjects I was going to bring up to Sal and Les De Asis and a whole bunch of custom makers.
The reason a custom maker makes knives is not because he loves it. Although they may love making knives the reason is to put food on the table. Bottom line MONEY!
So when they see these knock offs coming in from China and Taiwan they see red and for very good reason. Again that reason is MONEY! Now we could argue that a custom maker is more mad that they had their product knocked off all day but the real issue is that it was done without their permission and they are not making any money off of it, someone else is. I could be wrong but I doubt it.
Knock offs are going to be here regardless if a maker likes it or not. So what should be done, is someone take the initiative to show there is a better way to handle it.
Enter Dragon Forge........
I would like to bring these knives in and get them out to the public in such a way that promotes the original designer or custom maker.
How can I do that you say?
Pretty simple actually.
Each knife which comes in will be boxed with information about the original designer or custom maker including address, web site and any other information the maker wants, even a small catalog. This will help promote his actual business. Gil Hibben does this with each United product sold and he makes out just fine.
A percentage of the sale of each knife will go directly to the maker each month. This is called a royalty.
That's really about it.
Now you could say that if a maker wants his knives made in Taiwan he should go to the Taiwan companies and have them do it. The problem there is compounded many times over.
1) First, most, if not nearly all, knife makers have no idea how to contact these companies. Even large companies have problems doing this as evidenced by Berretta asking for help.
2) The maker would have to pay the tooling costs. Big money here folks.
3) The maker would have to find an importer or broker or do it himself. Not easy and not fun at all.
4) The maker would then have to promote the knives through various means of marketing. This is very costly and time consuming.
The reasons above are exactly why it is not being done already.
What is being done is that manufacturers are contacting custom knife makers to get their designs made overseas. United Cutlery is pretty much credited for pioneering this area many years ago with it's line of Hibben knives. Gil is a personal friend of mine and he has no regrets believe me. Other manufacturers are now doing very much the same thing. Columbia River, OutDoor Edge and others are doing it right now with many more in the works. So we know the idea works.
How many of you have a KISS knife designed by Ed Halligan or a Mirage designed by BF Member Jim Hammond?
Columbia River is exploiting this new market heavily and they are making good money doing so and so will the custom knife makers who sign up. Resident member Kit Carson will have a knife coming out of CRKT and OutDoor Edge and Darryl Ralph has one coming out of OutDoor Edge soon as well.
So we know the theory works.
Now what to do about all those damn knock offs! Well my idea outlined above might just be the ticket. I will approach various makers and see the response. They may very well tell me to go fly a kite or they may see it as an opportunity to make some money off the knock offs.
Now here is a problem with my solution that needs to be addressed before anyone brings it up.
Much of getting a custom makers knife made overseas is having the ability to control quality. This way the knife is made to the very specs the maker wants. Sometimes this makes the cost of the knife go up but overall it can be controlled without too much problem. Where Dragon Forge comes in is that each knife which the company in Taiwan makes will be sent to the maker for review. Obviously the knife will not be anywhere near the quality of a handmade knife but the price point prohibits that level of quality. A maker understands this. The maker would have final right of refusal and the item would not appear in the DF custom series line. If the knife gets the blessing of the maker he gets his royalties and does not have to invest a dime in any part of the program. Not even a prototype is necessary.
Of course all the above could be the most outlandish piece of crap garbage news you have ever heard or you could look at it from an objective point of view and see that it could possibly work.
I don't know and wont know until Blade Show.
Dragon Forge will continue to bring in knives regardless of the outcome. The only thing that will change is which particular knives are brought in. For the record not all DF knives are knock offs. Also if a manufacturer discontinues a knife I consider it fair game. The butterfly falls into this category.
The only way this will work is if the makers go for it. If they don't Dragon Forge will fall back to only the items which are not knock offs.
Of course this brings up another question. Why not ask permission right now before selling them? The reason is that I need to have a track record of sales between now and the Blade Show. It is hard to show if a product is viable if you have no sales figures to back it up. A check will be cut to each maker before the show and it will be presented to them to show what extra money they could be taking in from the knock offs.
I really hope this plan flies as it would be a proactive way to alleviate a touchy problem.
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
1) The makers can not afford to patent each and every design they make. It adds to the cost and they simply cannot afford it or raise the price on their knives. Plus it does not offer them much protection anyway.
2) Manufacturers have nearly the same problem. Unless the knife uses something very new and specific to them it is not worth the extra money to patent it or the design.
3) Even when a patent is issued this does not stop the companies from making knock offs. The reason is that it is very costly to go after them and the result is not worth the effort or the money put into it.
So how can we overcome each of these problems?
I had planned to wait till the Blade Show to reveal this but due to the earlier thread on Dragon Forge I feel forced to bring it out. This is one of the subjects I was going to bring up to Sal and Les De Asis and a whole bunch of custom makers.
The reason a custom maker makes knives is not because he loves it. Although they may love making knives the reason is to put food on the table. Bottom line MONEY!
So when they see these knock offs coming in from China and Taiwan they see red and for very good reason. Again that reason is MONEY! Now we could argue that a custom maker is more mad that they had their product knocked off all day but the real issue is that it was done without their permission and they are not making any money off of it, someone else is. I could be wrong but I doubt it.
Knock offs are going to be here regardless if a maker likes it or not. So what should be done, is someone take the initiative to show there is a better way to handle it.
Enter Dragon Forge........
I would like to bring these knives in and get them out to the public in such a way that promotes the original designer or custom maker.
How can I do that you say?
Pretty simple actually.
Each knife which comes in will be boxed with information about the original designer or custom maker including address, web site and any other information the maker wants, even a small catalog. This will help promote his actual business. Gil Hibben does this with each United product sold and he makes out just fine.
A percentage of the sale of each knife will go directly to the maker each month. This is called a royalty.
That's really about it.
Now you could say that if a maker wants his knives made in Taiwan he should go to the Taiwan companies and have them do it. The problem there is compounded many times over.
1) First, most, if not nearly all, knife makers have no idea how to contact these companies. Even large companies have problems doing this as evidenced by Berretta asking for help.
2) The maker would have to pay the tooling costs. Big money here folks.
3) The maker would have to find an importer or broker or do it himself. Not easy and not fun at all.
4) The maker would then have to promote the knives through various means of marketing. This is very costly and time consuming.
The reasons above are exactly why it is not being done already.
What is being done is that manufacturers are contacting custom knife makers to get their designs made overseas. United Cutlery is pretty much credited for pioneering this area many years ago with it's line of Hibben knives. Gil is a personal friend of mine and he has no regrets believe me. Other manufacturers are now doing very much the same thing. Columbia River, OutDoor Edge and others are doing it right now with many more in the works. So we know the idea works.
How many of you have a KISS knife designed by Ed Halligan or a Mirage designed by BF Member Jim Hammond?
Columbia River is exploiting this new market heavily and they are making good money doing so and so will the custom knife makers who sign up. Resident member Kit Carson will have a knife coming out of CRKT and OutDoor Edge and Darryl Ralph has one coming out of OutDoor Edge soon as well.
So we know the theory works.
Now what to do about all those damn knock offs! Well my idea outlined above might just be the ticket. I will approach various makers and see the response. They may very well tell me to go fly a kite or they may see it as an opportunity to make some money off the knock offs.
Now here is a problem with my solution that needs to be addressed before anyone brings it up.
Much of getting a custom makers knife made overseas is having the ability to control quality. This way the knife is made to the very specs the maker wants. Sometimes this makes the cost of the knife go up but overall it can be controlled without too much problem. Where Dragon Forge comes in is that each knife which the company in Taiwan makes will be sent to the maker for review. Obviously the knife will not be anywhere near the quality of a handmade knife but the price point prohibits that level of quality. A maker understands this. The maker would have final right of refusal and the item would not appear in the DF custom series line. If the knife gets the blessing of the maker he gets his royalties and does not have to invest a dime in any part of the program. Not even a prototype is necessary.
Of course all the above could be the most outlandish piece of crap garbage news you have ever heard or you could look at it from an objective point of view and see that it could possibly work.
I don't know and wont know until Blade Show.
Dragon Forge will continue to bring in knives regardless of the outcome. The only thing that will change is which particular knives are brought in. For the record not all DF knives are knock offs. Also if a manufacturer discontinues a knife I consider it fair game. The butterfly falls into this category.
The only way this will work is if the makers go for it. If they don't Dragon Forge will fall back to only the items which are not knock offs.
Of course this brings up another question. Why not ask permission right now before selling them? The reason is that I need to have a track record of sales between now and the Blade Show. It is hard to show if a product is viable if you have no sales figures to back it up. A check will be cut to each maker before the show and it will be presented to them to show what extra money they could be taking in from the knock offs.
I really hope this plan flies as it would be a proactive way to alleviate a touchy problem.
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
