Knock-offs.

Fake Rolexes etc. are illegal because they are using a registered name for their own product and this is illegal.

It is just as illegal to copy a design.

Patents, trademarks, and copyrights are all legal rights. Violating any one of them is illegal.



I am not sure that this applies to knives though.

Of course it does.


I have not seen a fake well known brand in knives. It usually has a totally different name.

Often, knock-off companies choose not to copy the names of knife companies. I suspect it's simply because they're not so well-known that the name adds much value to the product in the general market. Quite frankly, a lot of knife companies have less-than-exciting names. Take Benchmade. What's a Benchmade? Some folks apparently feel that the knife will sell better in the general market if it has a more exciting name like maybe "Midnight Slasher."

Copying names is also a bit dangerous in terms of getting your illegal fakes past customs. A Customs agent may not know anything about watches, but he can say, "I do know that Rolex is a registered trademark. It says so right here on my list." A Customs agent wondering if a shipment of knives are illegal copies, counterfeits if you prefer, doesn't have to wonder about the design of the knife if they're marked "Benchmade." Works are easy to match. So, unless the name is a considerable part of the value of the product, Rolex for example, then it's just not worth the extra risk to use it.





And if it was illegal, why did this shop stock it? Just a thought.

The fact that it's in a store for sale does not make it legal. It means that the store is either knowingly or unknowingly violating the law.
 
... knife designs are patentable? Unless it is a new lock mechanism or something I would not expect that to be the case. If the design is not patentable, then they are available for anyone to copy.
If I see two knives of almost identical design and one is made in China and sells for $14.95, and the other is made by a well-known quality manufacturer and sells for $39.95, the clear choice is whether I determine that the increased quality justifies the extra price. There may be times when it will and there may be times when it won't.
Now if the manufacturer name or brand logo is copied, that would be grounds for a lawsuit, and as a consumer I would be pissed. If I pay for a certain manufacturer, I want the knife to be from that manufacturer, because the company is known for a certain level of quality.
 
Golllnick, are you saying that... knife designs are patentable? Unless it is a new lock mechanism or something I would not expect that to be the case.

Well, there is a thing called a "Design Patent," but it's very limited in its scope. Generally designs are covered by copyright. Copyrights are actually more protective than patents and you have one instantly the moment you express a work. A patent is broader in that it covers the "theory of operation", if you will, of your invention not just a specific implimentation of it.



If the design is not patentable, then they are available for anyone to copy.

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

If a design is not patentable, it can be, and, in fact, probably is covered by copyright.



Now if the manufacturer name or brand logo is copied, that would be grounds for a lawsuit

Yes, assuming that the manufacturer's name and/or logo are registered, that would be a trademark violation.



There is one other form of intellectual property protection, Trade Secret, but it doesn't usually apply to knock-offs. Trade Secrets protect things that are specifically not revealed to the public. A patented lock mechanism is revealed completely in the patent application which is a matter of public record. You can get a copy of it off the internet. A maker's trademark is, obviously, out there on the product and anyone can see them. That's what it's for. A copyrighted blade design, for example, is also something that anyone looking at the product can see.

A trade secret might be the maker's exclusive heat treating process. It's not revealed in a patent. It's not readily visible on the product. It's a secret. As such, it also enjoys special legal protections.
 
Gollnick,
Hhmmm! Blade designs can be copyrighted, not patented. That's interesting. Are there any know cases of a company successfully sueing another company for this type of copyright violation?
 
Originally posted by Fireshaker
Look what I ran across surfing some cheapo knife place.

http://www.popularlink.com/?ITEMID=HK-216

Whats THAT remind you of? heheh.


Reminds me of something I would NEVER buy. Too many competing design elements and a SERRATED blade... Puke!

No, honestly, it looks like the stuff I see at gunshows that ain't under glass etc. It looks like a chinese clone of crap.

Joe Shmoe - A Cheap A$$ Sumbeech, but not crazy!
 
Originally posted by JoeShmoe2002
It looks like a chinese clone of crap.

Not exactly what I'd consider "crap" (the original, not the clone). But that's just my opinion.

vector.jpg
 
Hhmmm! Blade designs can be copyrighted, not patented.

Well, there is this thing called a "design patent." I'm told that nobody's really quite sure what all they can and can't cover. I'm told that for protecting purely look-and-feel issues they're probably not your best bet.

Simply the shape of something probably can't be patented. But, if there is some unique and new or substantially improved functionality that comes from that shape, then you could patent it. For example, if you were the first person to come up with a "gutting hook" shape feature on a knife, you could probably have patented that.

Spyderco, for example, I understand, patented the opening hole. However that patent was poorly written. It specified a round hole. that explains why Benchmade is now moving to oblong holes.



That's interesting. Are there any know cases of a company successfully sueing another company for this type of copyright violation?

I don't know of one in the knife world off hand, but law suits for copyright violations are commonplace.

In all kinds of intellectual property protections, patents, trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets, there are no "Patent Police" who run around looking for violations and arresting violators (Customs does this to some extent on imported goods). In general, you must enforce your own rights and you do so primarily by suing violators in civil court. It is very important that you actually do do that. If you have a patent and you are aware that someone is violating it without your permission and you don't assert your rights, you could end up loosing those rights by default.
 
I think there has been some pretty interesting thoughts presented in this thread and would like to get more opinions on this subject.
 
Originally posted by Gollnick
Spyderco, for example, I understand, patented the opening hole. However that patent was poorly written. It specified a round hole. that explains why Benchmade is now moving to oblong holes.

Actually, Spyderco's patent was well written and covered a lot. It covered all opening holes, of any shape, and even "impressions" used for opening (just any hole that didn't go all the way through).
Their patent recently expired, however.
Other companies still can't use the round hole without their permission, however, because the round hole is their trademark. To my knowledge, a trademark does not expire.
So long story short, you used to have to ask Spyderco to use any hole, now you just have to ask them for the round hole.
 
Here is part of the original text of the patent from Sep. 7, 1982:

...an enlarged portion of the blade providing a depression that can be engaged be the user's thumb to open the blade one-handedly...

And a quote from The Spyderco Story:

The wording of the patent is meant to include any tpe of depression in the blade designed to engage the fleshy part of the thumb, a hole merely being a special case of depressions on each side of the blade that meet in the middle.

If you search around and read on the Spyderco forum, this topic has been covered many times. The Timberline Special Forces folder was produced before the patent expired and uses a diamond shaped hole. They collaborated with Sal on this one and got his permission to use the hole:

<img src="http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/timberline/images/specialsc3.jpg">

A trademark is different, however. It's a recognizeable aspect of a company. For example, I'm sure McDonalds doesn't have a patent on their Golden Arches, but you couldn't use them because they are a trademark of McDonalds. And they've been using them a lot longer than any patent would last. See what I'm saying?
 
actually, Spyderco's patent was well written and covered a lot. It covered all opening holes, of any shape, and even "impressions" used for opening

Shows you what I know, eh?

But, this does help illustrate some important points.

First, as I said, you can patent the shape of something if that shape somehow gives that object a new or improved function.

Second, the reach of a patent often turns on a single word. If your patent is to narrow, your competition may be able to get around it with just a tiny design tweak. But, if your patent it to broad, the Patent Office may not grant it and even if they do, the courts may subsequently dismiss it leaving you with nothing. Writting patents is a high art. It's best to get a qualified lawyer to help.

Third, patents expire. You get 17 years. You can extend to 20 years if you can convince the PTO (Patent and Trademark Office) that continuing your patent protection would be in the public's interest. But, 20 years is the most. Ah, but here's where a good lawyer enters in again. You get quite a bit of patent protection from the day you submit your application even before your patent is granted. A good lawyer can draw that process out buying you several more years of protection. But, even with all of tricks in the book, 23 years is about the limit on a patent.

Copyrights are good for, as I recall and I may be wrong on this (looking up the actual data is left to the reader as an exercise) the life of the original author plus 99 years (keep in mind that you can leave your copyrights to your heirs as part of your estate). Anyway, regardless of what the actual number is, it's a long time.

But, trademarks are perpetual. As long as a business keeps paying the renewal fee, it can keep its trademark.

Forth, even if the shape of an object doesn't somehow give it a unique or improved function, you can still trademark it if that shape identifies or distinguishes your product in the market. The classic example being Aunt Jamima (SP?) Syrup which comes in a very distinctivly shaped bottle.

Fifth, patents are broader than trademarks. A patent can say something like "any shaped hole or indentation in the blade of a folding knife that is intended to assist in opening the knife." But trademarks must be specific. I can't trademark, "a bottle in the shape of a person." I can only trademark a specifc shape.

Sixth, patents can apply well beyond the original invention. I used to work for a company that made warehouse automation equipment. For some reason, we had the good fortune to patent, "portable computer with removable battery pack." That was well before PCs even existed. The computers we were thinking of resemble over-grown calculators and typically have a bar code scanner attached. They're used for taking inventory. But, when the lap-top computer did hit, we cleaned up collecting license fees from the likes of HP and Compaq for several years.

This case brings up some the subject of licensing. The law says basically that once we licensed HP, we also had to license Compaq, Dell, Toshiba, Sony, and all others. Basically, if you decide to exploit your patent by licensing it, you have to license everyone who wants a license under comparable terms. But, Zenith refused to pay us and made laptops with removable batteries without a license. We sued them. The courts upheld our patent and awarded us a tidy bit of damages. But, here's the fun part: because Zenith had violated our patent and forced us to sue them and had counter-sued us and so forth, the law allowed us to have "malice" toward them and refuse to license them. Notice, please, that Zenith is no longer in the PC business. Between having to pay us tripple damages and then not being able to offer competitive laptops with removable batteries, they were driven out of the market.

Trademarks, on the other hand, are often confined to a specific market. A market can be defined in a lot of different says. There is a company that trademarked making ironing boards yellow color. The ironing boards we're talking about here are used in large, commercial laundries. They successfully argued that their ironing boards were a distinct product and that they had, for a long time, distinguised their product in the market by making them yellow. So, the color yellow, when used on an ironing board anywhere in the US, is trademarked. But, there's a company here in Portland that also has a trademark on the color yellow. In this case, it's the color yellow when used on a taxi cab car in the Portland, Oregon and surrounding communities area. So, markets can be a specific product, a specific geographic area, or other definitions. Spyderco can trademark a round hole on a knife blade. But, they can not trademark all round holes anywhere.

Shapes can be trademarked. Smells can be trademarked. Even sounds can be trademarked.

AOL does not have a trademark on the phrase "You've got mail." They tried, but other companies where able to show the PTO that e-mail systems have been popping up messages saying "you've got mail" for decades. But AOL does have a trademark on the sound of their distinctive "You've got mail" announcement. AT&T has one on the tone peele you hear with the message "Thank you for using AT&T" when you make a long-distance call with them. Harley Davidson tried to trademark the distinctive sound of their motorcycles. But, the PTO didn't feel that they're definition was specific enough.
 
Wow, was that ever more of an education than I thought I was going to get when I started this thread. Thanks Chuck, I learned some very interesting things from your post.

Even if things are protected by Patents, Trademarks and Copyrights the companies being infringed upon have to be willing to take the appropriate actions and go after the rip-off artists. This does not seem to happen in the knife industry. I wonder if it is because it is just not considered to be worth the headache and expense of taking legal action?
 
The chief method for enforcing your intellectual property rights, patent, trademark, or copyright, is a civil lawsuit. It is the responsibility of the person or company that owns those rights to bring and persue that suit. If you are aware that someone is violating your intellectual property rights but don't take action, then you will end up loosing your rights.

Unfortunately, there are a few countries that don't respect internationally-acknowledged patent, copyright, and trademark laws. Most of the knock-offs of just about anything, knives, watches, sports shoes, whatever, come out of those countries.

China is the biggest offender by far. In order to join the WTO, China has had to agree to recognize and enforce internationally-recognized patent, copyright, and trademark laws. So far, they've given it little more than lip service.

US Customs should stop such merchandise from entering the country. And, they do. US Customs confiscates and destroys billions of dollars worth of counterfeit and otherwise violating merchandise per year. But, customs does not inspect every package. Smugglers use many techniques to evade customs. And customs is not aware of every trademark, every patent, and every copyright.

If a maker or manufacturer sees imported products that violate his intellectual rights, he should contact US Customs. They can investigate and they can try to take some enforcement action.

By the way, if you import a shipment of violating products, let's say 1000 pieces, and Customs does not stop them on the way in, and you sell let's say 100 pieces in the first month, don't think you're safe. Customs can come knocking on your door a month later and confiscate the remaining products even though they were initially cleared. In theory, they can even knock on your customers' doors and search their houses for the illegal knives and confiscate them though they don't usually go to that extreme for a lot of reasons.

Anyway, Customs tries, but they are not 100% perfect. Furthermore, they really need to have violations brought to their attention by the owners of the rights that are violated.


Now, here are some more interesting facts: Individuals can not own trademarks; only businesses can. This is easy to get around; you just form a business that is totally owned by the individual and the business owns the trademark.

Businesses, on the other hand, can not own patents; only inventors can own patents. This is easy to get around; inventors can sell their rights to the company. Many companies require employees to sign an agreement when they hire on that they will sell their rights to any patents acquired for some fixed price. At the company I mentioned earlier, the warehouse automation company, each time you got a patent, Jack, our patent lawyer, would come around with a crisp one dollar bill for you and ask you to sign a receipt for it. $1 was the pre-agreed price for the patent rights to any patent you acquired as a result of the work you did for the company. I've got an envelope full of those dollar bills with the patent numbers written on each one.

(Why bother with the dollar bills? Legally, you can not give away patent rights. You always have to sell or trade them for something of value.)

Copyrights can be owned by either companies or individuals.

Patents mostly cover something functional.

Trademarks cover something that identifies the product or business.

Copyrights are the broadest. They can cover design, appearance, text, a lot of stuff.
 
Chuck,

Wow!:eek:

You sure know a lot of law stuff. Remember the other discussion on suing a car maintenance workshop?

It is indeed an interesting reading.
 
Don't forget, I've got an envelope full of dollar bills.

And don't forget, I didn't tell our friend how to sue the car shop, I told him how to negotiate with the car shop. Law suits are always messy and even if you win it seems like you end up loosing something. But a good negotiation is one where everyone walks away a winner. I like it when everyone's a winner.
 
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