Knock-Off's

Sal,

The term "cheap copy" doesn't even ring home until you are approached by the Chinese at a SHOT show and they tell you your cost...

One such group was trying to sell us a Gerber Multiplier copy (the big one). Our cost was $4.00 each.

Now that's cheap!

Rick
 
clocker, I spend my time as a food scientist de-engineering someone else's food products back to a process and raw ingredients. This is business. A patent only gives me an idea how you did something and allows me to do it better than you without violating your patent. Striders comment about developing a product and having a knock off come out first indicates there was not a well executed plan for keeping things close hold. In the process of picking materials vendors, you should bind them with a legal non-disclosure agreement so even if you don't pick them, they legally can't spread your business around the industry. In fact, the designer and the manufacturer should have a legal agreement between them also. Even with all these, sometimes things get out and there is little you can do about it. A patent is OK but only lasts 17 years and that gives someone plenty of time to build a better mouse trap. The formula for Coke is not patented, because that would be public information. It is a trade secret (another form of intellectual property) and closely guarded. Knife makers are generally great craftsmen in an industry known for telling what they know to anyone. If you're going into business making and selling knives, you have to adopt conventional business and intellectual property procedures, or don't be surprised if you are out-flanked.
 
Yes, I admit it...this week I bought Master Knives' Spike, which is a copy of Benchmade's Spike...because I wanted to see if I wanted to get a Benchmade Spike (i.e. I feel comfy with the shape in my pocket, etc) and if Master Knives were any good.

I have mixed feelings about the Spike--it's pretty damn sharp, but the knife has a bit too much play when opened. I adjusted the pivot, but then I couldn't open the Spike one handed. If I actually gave a damn, I'd send the knife back...

Sharp, close to the real thing, but if you want quality, you have to go with the real thing.
 
Does anyone have a URL for a site that sells Master Knives?

Thanks

[This message has been edited by clyde (edited 13 February 1999).]

[This message has been edited by clyde (edited 13 February 1999).]
 
Benchmade pays royalties on the Spike design, does Master? Perhaps that is closer to the difference between a "Knock off" and a legitimate reproduction. The designer is getting some reward for his efforts. Efforts that had they not been extended, the design would not exist in the first place.

Also producing a marginally performing copy of a great performer is deception, in addition to theft.

Spyderco has spent a great deal of money (money that would have been best used elswhere) to defend our patented designs. What of the small company that cannot go up against a large company. Rarely is compensation sufficient to pay lawyers fees. A loss all the way around.

"It takes all kinds of animals to make a forrest. Without the leeches and the mosquitos, we don't appreciate the hawks and the deer". I know they exist and probably always will. It is just an inconvenience, like ants at YOUR picnic, and bug spray is expensive and smells bad. More opinion.
sal
 
Just think about it some of us wonder why some knives are getting more expensive.
Companies like Spyderco and Benchmade have to shell out money to lawyers to fight these creeps therefore the cost of doing business goes up and the profit margins comes down. Who do you think is going to pay for that in the long run? The ELU. So lets not gawk at these knives like they are an accident on side of the road. Saying things like I just had to see what they were like. I can pick one up at a knife show and see what it looks like, but I will not buy one at any cost because they are hurting our industry. Hopefully one day this will be addressed by AKTI. In the meantime we need to educate our knife buying public and show them the difference between a piece of junk and a fine crafted piece of cutlery. I make approx 300 handcrafted throwing knives a year and at most shows I attend I keep one of these cheap throwers that was bent into a U shape from normal throwing to show knife buyers the difference between a fine handcrafted thrower and a piece of pure junk.
Remember EDUCATION is the key.

Bobby Branton
President
American Knife Throwers Alliance
Knife Maker

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Sal,

Thanks for spelling out the reality for us. I helps to be reminded about what goes into making and selling knives.

Knifeslinger,

I think you are absolutely right about education. Education also requires periodic reminders to buyers. Some of us tend to forget when we see those low $ knives.

I confess that several years ago I bought a "Knock Off" of the REKAT Hobbit Warrior. I was new to knife buying at the time and didn't have a good understanding of the industry. I really love a good fighting knife and it's hard to resist purchasing one at low cost, especially when you know the knife will never be used. I would most likely not purchase that same knife today, even though I still can't afford the real thing.

Thanks for the reminders and educational posts.
 
Ok, Mr. Sal G, you convinced me. I've been thinking about your response for the past few days and came to the conclusion that knock-offs, in the long run, are bad for us all.

I resolve to knock off "knock-offs" from my wish list!
 
I think the worst thing about knock-offs are when dealers carrying the "real" knife are also selling the copy.....
Nick
 
The users of this forum are generally very knowledgable knife consumers. It should be our job to educate if not ridicule those who buy "knock-offs". As for the "I can't afford a high quality knife" argument, it's like alot of things. If you really want it, you save, scrimp, and do whatever it takes to get the needed funds to buy the knife you want. This adds immensly to the pride of ownership of such a knife. My two bits worth.

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I could never settle for a copy, I'm aware of quality because I know knives, but I see alot of teenagers carrying knock offs, you can spot them, even the clips are knocked off. But I hope when they can afford the real deal they will buy the original!The swap meets and flea markets sell everything knocked off, for Oakley sunglasses to Tommy Hilflicker,
biggrin.gif
...When I am in a knife shop I always discuss this with them, about not selling them. Get some interesting veiws. But some of the stuff coming out of say Tiawan, China and even Japan are getting better. Oh well thats life. Are companies protected in anyway from people ripping there designs? Like patents ect. The knife shows have alot of knock offs..I too hear boy,! $20.00 for a pocket knife..whats it made of titanium?? No, Jed it looks like plastic, imagine that a plastic knife for twenty bucks...Daaaaammn,he shrieks!!
MY $.02 Worth..
 
When I was in college I got into flyfishing and backpacking in a big way. Being way limited in income, I bought whatever equipment I could afford, i.e. lots of cheaps stuff. Well, nothiing worse than having cheap equipment fail on you in the middle of a trip or in the middle of a lunker on the line. After college, I started stocking quality equipment which does very well what the designers/manufacturerers intended it to.

Since then I have a little more "discretionary" income (a relative thing, eh...) But, I learned my lesson. Better to buy good quality equipment right of the mark. Saves you alot of hassle. The maunfacturers stand behind the equipment and you have that intangible pride in ownership of something that is of good/high quality, that will last with usage over time, and can be passed on to someone else to enjoy when you move on to even better equipment.

Sal, I expect my Spydercos to last until my two boys are enough appreciate good knifes for their fishing and camping trips. And I confident that they will or that you'll stand behind them.

Forget the Knockoffs, unless you are desparately desparate.

sing
 
Hope you all didn't think I wanted to BUY one, when I asked for the website...my goodness...was looking for it for the boss, Mr. Glesser..ahem

Can't believe I am at HOME, away from Spyderco, on a Friday night..reading the forums...what has gotten into me?!



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A man doesn't automatically get my respect, he has to get down in the dirt and beg for it.
 
knockoffs do serve some useful purposes. for instance, i was at a flea market a few years ago, and i spotted a folding knife with a thumb stud, obviously meant to be opened with one hand. "what a great idea", i thought. i had always carried old knives my granfather gave me, but had never seen anything like this. it was $15. i bought it immediately, and asked the vendor who made it. he said it was from taiwan and was an imitation of a kershaw, benchmade or spyderco. the first thing i thought was "it gets better than this"? i then went on a search for these spyderco and benchmade brands that i had never heard of before. i found some magazines (blade and tactical knives) at bookstores, and consequently found websites. my first knives were all bought at knifestores (found in the yellow pages) and i paid full retail. i bought only benchmade and spyderco, some kershaw.
i always remember that if it hadn't been for some "cheap knockoff", i wouldn't have all the wonderful knives i have today.

marco
 
Just rec'd a U.S. Cavalary catalog and what do I see besides the usual BM and Spydie knock offs for sale but a perfect reproduction of the Hollow handled Buck Master. Will wonders never cease. Maybe a boycott of places that sell this crap? Bud K. seems to be one of the biggest offenders for knock-offs also.
Bob
 
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