Ladder damascus chatoyance

jdm61

jdm61

itinerant metal pounder
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Aug 12, 2005
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Traditionally, I have gotten the "3D chatoyance" with my 1084/15N20 ladder pattern damascus by going to higher layer counts like 400+.Recently, I read that another way to get those effect is to use alternating layers of "black" steel like 1084, O2, etc and steel that has less manganese or maybe even some chrome and etches lighter "gray"like W2 or maybe 52100 along with your "silver" nickel bearing steel. Obviously, you would still match the steels based on their depth of hardening. Has anyone done this?
 
I have always chosen steels with contrasting etch to make the pattern show. Higher layer count makes the lines closer together and adds chatoyancy. Deeper etching ( especially in stainless damascus) also makes the chatoyancy show.
 
The higher layer count is what I have always used to get that. I see big difference in 1084/15N20 between say a 180 layer blade and one where you go over 360 or so. A 350-400+ layer kitchen knife doesn't even reacquire a "deep" etch at all in my limited experience. I had just heard someone mention that if you added say W2 to that mix and create a "3 color" billet, you get a bit more of the effect. I have also heard guys like DH III say that they do that just to bump up the carbon content, etc and maybe get some other benfit from the alloying of the third steel. Given a choice, if I was going for super duper high contrast would go with O2 and 15N20 or 75Ni8 with parkerizing, hot bluing or the old cold instant coffee etch at the end of the process.
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I have always chosen steels with contrasting etch to make the pattern show. Higher layer count makes the lines closer together and adds chatoyancy. Deeper etching ( especially in stainless damascus) also makes the chatoyancy show.
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Chatoyance comes from higher layer counts and closer to equal thickness between the dark layers and the bright layers. Everyone has their preferred starting mix, try a mix that is 60/40 (60% dark,40% light layers in thickness) and run it up to 300 or more layers.

Hoss
 
Thanks, Hoss. That raises another question. How thick do you or can go with the nickel bearing steel? Have heard some say that you should go thin because it does not"compress" as much. I have been doubling up my .072 15N20 in recent years because I start with 1/4 1084. It sounds like you are saying that say .095 or .130 15N20 and .125 or .187 'black" steel would get you there.
DevinT said:
Chatoyance comes from higher layer counts and closer to equal thickness between the dark layers and the bright layers. Everyone has their preferred starting mix, try a mix that is 60/40 (60% dark,40% light layers in thickness) and run it up to 300 or more layers.

Hoss
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15n20 compresses just fine. The higher the layer count, the more it looks like the bright layers are thicker.

Hoss
 
Ah, I like that last remark. It confirms my observation about relative compression. I mean, they all draw out to the same length, right? It's not like the density of the layers can or does change.

I know folks will have their own preference about the overall darkness of their damascus- personally I like about 50/50, with plenty of bright. I often wonder if guys use only 1/3 or so 15n20 just because it costs more new than the dark steel usually does...
 
With the amount of time and labour needed to make Damascus, one would think the cost of the steel itself would be irrelevant. :confused:
 
As far as materials, consumables, etc go, 1084/15N20 damascus really doesn't cost much more that say a comparably sized slug of "super steel" like CPM3V or S35VN for simple patterns like random, ladder or raindrop. A 2 x .207 x 36 piece of ground 3V costs $126. if you take a 2 x 3 x 6 stack of 1084/15N20 at about $80-85 and lose over 50% of it to scale, laddering, etc., you still have a 2 x.200 x 36 piece. That assumes that you have a power hammer or press. The labor is where the real cost is.
Willie71 said:
With the amount of time and labour needed to make Damascus, one would think the cost of the steel itself would be irrelevant. :confused:
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I do not find the cost of steel to be irrelevant...
To get good 15n20 new from Kelly Cupples is $8-$9/lb. depending on thickness. 1080 costs half that. I go through a fair amount of 15n20, and that can get expensive- especially when competing with all the other regular expenses of a knife shop.

That's why I use recycled band mill blades of known alloy, and plasma cut strips from that.
 
I was not implying that it was irrelvant,just that it the material cost is not dissimilar compared to other premium blade materials. A .072 thick 1.5 inch wide and 48 long bar is like $13-14 from Aldo. Chuck charges pretty much the same per pound. I double that up. I typically use 12-14 6 inch pieces, so that is like maybe as much as $25 per stack just on the 15N20.. That is probably the minimum "poundage" for the size stack that i like to start with. A bar of .250 1084 is a hair over $30. IIRC, a 48 inch bar of 1/4 x 1.5 is like 6 pounds, so that is $5 a pound. Where I run into trouble is with labor time. I have a 15 ton MOL press so things can a be slow going compared to someone with a hammer or both. I figure that I have a minimum $150 in "labor cost"in any billet that I make.
Salem Straub said:
I do not find the cost of steel to be irrelevant...
To get good 15n20 new from Kelly Cupples is $8-$9/lb. depending on thickness. 1080 costs half that. I go through a fair amount of 15n20, and that can get expensive- especially when competing with all the other regular expenses of a knife shop.

That's why I use recycled band mill blades of known alloy, and plasma cut strips from that.
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Joe, "irrelevant" came from Warren, I was mostly replying to what he said... and merely in an informative way, as I don't believe he makes damascus. The economics of our billet making appear to be similar, although as you say not having a power hammer can slow things down in ways.

Anyway, I think I derailed the thread a little from its original intent! I do like what parkerizing and a little buff afterwards does for chatoyancy in a ladder billet...
 
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