Ladder Pattern: Forge then grind or Grind then forge?

Kentucky

Kentucky

Joined
Dec 13, 2008
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When you guys make your ladder pattern which gives you the best results? Grinding in the ladders then forging or forging in the ladders then grinding?
 
I don't think that it is as important with ladder as say with raindrop, because either way, the layers get "bent" but i prefer to press and grind because I have ladder dies and press and I don't have a good milling machine. The advantage with pressing is that any marginal growth in length happens while you are making the grooves. With cutting, you have to accept for your pattern getting a fair bit "longer" Either way, you end up with a fair amount of steel on the floor. Wha I have found with pressing is that you don't have to do the 1/3 deep on each side thing to get a really good pattern.
 
Scroll a little below halfway down the first page on Kyle Royer's hanger bowie WIP where he begins pressing in the "west texas wind ladder pattern." When I first saw him do this, it stuck with me becuase I thought it was such a great idea to get the pattern to run all the way to the edge without becoming washed out by the grinding in of the bevels.

(Not sure who to give credit to, but this is the first place that "I" saw this technique)

He actually welded the press dies at an angle so while he presses in the pattern, he's forming the bevels at the same time.. Check it out! :thumbup:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1198861-Work-in-Progress-Hanger-Bowie

~Paul
My YT Channel Lsubslimed
 
Press then grind is easier and produces a better pattern for me. It allows for an even pattern, as the dies control the spacing. The grinding is not critical, as all you need to do is get back to a flat surface.

In grind them press, each grind line has to be carefully spaced at the exact same depth....over and over again....to get an even pattern. Then, in the pressing it flat, you can mess the pattern up by over pressing an area.

My dies are make by welding small round stock onto a flat die.
 
I have those Uncle Al dies in straight ladder and chevron.
coldsteelburns said:
Scroll a little below halfway down the first page on Kyle Royer's hanger bowie WIP where he begins pressing in the "west texas wind ladder pattern." When I first saw him do this, it stuck with me becuase I thought it was such a great idea to get the pattern to run all the way to the edge without becoming washed out by the grinding in of the bevels.

(Not sure who to give credit to, but this is the first place that "I" saw this technique)

He actually welded the press dies at an angle so while he presses in the pattern, he's forming the bevels at the same time.. Check it out! :thumbup:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1198861-Work-in-Progress-Hanger-Bowie

~Paul
My YT Channel Lsubslimed
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jdm61 said:
I have the original Imagination Xpress. I bought Jeff Carlisle's personal press.
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Its a shame they don't make that press anymore..Its a nice press. Ive heard nothing but good about uncle Al's press. Claiborn is still making his press but the price is about to about $5K now.
 
I do agree with Stacy that press and grind is easier and more uniform but I think that grinding first has more flow to it not quite so uniform. I use a hammer rather then press how ever press is a little slow. The imagination press were nice but a single stage pump on it rather then the two stage would put it over the top.
 
If I had to do it all over again, i would have bought one of Ron's presses and a pile of his dies. I got a good deal on my press, but the dies are a PITA to make and fit up for an amateur like me. It also lacks a bit of grunt.
Kentucky said:
Its a shame they don't make that press anymore..Its a nice press. Ive heard nothing but good about uncle Al's press. Claiborn is still making his press but the price is about to about $5K now.
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jdm61 said:
If I had to do it all over again, i would have bought one of Ron's presses and a pile of his dies. I got a good deal on my press, but the dies are a PITA to make and fit up for an amateur like me. It also lacks a bit of grunt.
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I wasn't gona mention the grunt thing and I guess thats probably why all these presses with less than 5 horse motors use a two stage pump .
 
Your single stage press scares most mere mortals. I remember you telling me that you had to be careful not to press too hard or you would actually hear the welds shearing. :D As for grunt, the Imagination Xpress was designed as a 15 ton machine. IIRC, most of the H frames are on the 20 plus range. if I had lots a money and no sense (don't have the first, got plenty of the second) I would want the "four poster" press with all of the neat control features from Matt Whittmus where you use a single big "power pack" to run the press and the rolling mill. Of course, a few years back, each standalone machine was like $6500 or more but I am sure you got a little discount if you both botuh and only needed one pump!!!:eek:
Cliff Parker said:
I wasn't gona mention the grunt thing and I guess thats probably why all these presses with less than 5 horse motors use a two stage pump .
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If I had all kinds of money if get Larry Langdon to build me one of his monster c frame presses.
 
You remember wrong. Pushing to hard has nothing to do with it . It does have enough ass however to push when it has lost more heat than you should be pushing on. Thats no fault of the press. That's operator error.

I don't know if Al's press is 5hp when pump hits second stage or not. What I think is better with a single stage over a 2 stage is the single doesnt slow down when it makes contact with your material like a 2 stage. faster it is more you get done on a heat.
 
I think that you are getting single stage and double stage confused in how they work.

Single stage is a pump that gives a single flow rate. It will be something like 11GPM.
Double stage is a pump that when it detects a resistance in the ram, it maintains full ram force by cutting the speed in half. The ratings would be something like 22/11 GPM. It is the same under load as the single stage pump, but twice as fast when not under load.

(Using those pump numbers, and a 5HP motor, on a 20 ton setup)
The double stage is twice as fast when not in contact with the billet. It runs at 22GPM, which might be 2 IPS for the press ram speed. When the ram strikes the billet, the pressure in the hose increases, and the pump switches to half the flow rate in order to maintain full pressure. The ram slows to 1 IPS. At any time, the power of the press is 20 tons (eg). This allows the 5HP motor to do more work under load.

In the single stage pump runs at 1 IPS all the time, and develops 20 tons (eg). To get the ram faster would require a larger motor and a larger pump.

The advantage of the two stage is a faster ram travel in the cycling stroke. It also saves on the motor size and pump size. The amount of time spent rising from the billet and reversing to return to the billet is cut in half over a single stage pump. This allows more pressing time per heat.

To make a press even more useful, automate the ram with a relay system and solenoid valves that reverses the ram at a certain cycle time. The ram goes down for X.X seconds, reverses automatically for Y.Y seconds, and immediately presses again for X.X seconds. This will repeat as long as the switch is down. This is all adjustable, and operated by a foot switch. The press also can be run manually from the foot pedal in normal up/down mode. Automating the press makes for more strokes in a single heat.
 
Stacy, Run all the numbers you want. This is what I know from using both. My single stage pump pushes faster than any two stage pump I have seen . As far as being faster when not under a load Iv'e not seen a two stage twice as fast and why would you raise the ram any further than a 1/2 ' or so to move you material and take next bite if you are your wasting your time.
Probably isn't any since in saying any more on this subject other than if your in my area at any time stop by try my press you wont want yours anymore.
Cliff
 
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I agree with Cliff, his press with single stag pump is an animal. I've used at least a half dozen presses with 2 stage pumps and they squeeze a billet slower than Cliff's. I'd change mine to a single stage right now, but just don't use it much with two 100 lb Little Giants here. Bout all I use the press for any more is to press in ladder patterns.
 
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