Ladder Pattern: Forge then grind or Grind then forge?

Thanks Don, I guess it's something you have to use it to believe it. I agree the Al's press I used sure left ya want'n more.
 
Larrys press he made for Mareko has a 10hp and single stage pump(I think about 8gal)..Think that would squeeze?:D Problem is it weighs about two tons and cost a lot more to build than I can afford for one. Check it out. The attractive thing about Al's press I suppose is that its affordable and does most of what anyone wants from it I guess. just a couple days ago I found one not 10 minutes from me believe it or not.So I got to try it out. Im a hammer man myself but from what I saw it looks like a good solid unit.Moved a billet pretty fast.
http://www.iforgeiron.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=78896
 
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Is that you KYBoy lol. I've been following that thread also, I'd love to have a press like Dave's or Mareko's but you're right that is a lot of cash.

To Stacy's point I don't think he was saying its better or faster. Maybe faster in one aspect. I think he was just pointing out the physics behind it. Two identical presses and one is single the other two speed. One gets to target faster then slows way down the other is a little slower but never slows down at the target. But I get what you are saying Cliff, I'd prefer a single speed myself. That and someone mentioned problems with cavitation bubbles after a certain speed with a two stage.

Cliff any chance you'd post some photos and stats on your press? It sounds like a beast!

Personally I think a single speed 25-30 ton press moving 3-4" ips would be fantastic and not leaving me wanting. But that thread Kentucky is talking about explains some of the pros and cons. Which to me come down to cost and size versus performance... $10k for those presses and he said he'd still like to put a bigger motor on them.

-Clint
 
LOL, yea that'd be me:) Im sure not saying its not worth it. Beast of a machine and I know how much goes into building a machine like that but before id personally spend 10K on a press Id buy a 250# hammer all day first..Ive made a huge lot of my lifes wages with metal working machines of some kind or another. Since I was 15 in fact..Theres always trade offs of some kind..Money vs size vs speed vs power etc..Cant have it all in one..Bigger and bad'r costs more, just the way it is in metal working. if all your doing is welding billets together then you don't need to spend $2500 on a millermatic 251. You can get by just fine with a $450 Lincoln 140..Most knifemakers get buy just fine with just a 25#LG or a Uncle Als press..But ehn you take a industrial blacksmith and he think a No. 7 Beaudry is on the verge of being "small".
 
Kentucky said:
You can get by just fine with a $450 Lincoln 140..Most knifemakers get buy just fine with just a 25#LG or a Uncle Als press..But ehn you take a industrial blacksmith and he think a No. 7 Beaudry is on the verge of being "small".
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Sorry Kentucky none of that rational talk does anything for my tool addiction :D I enjoy buying and using the tools as much as I do knife making.

I have no doubt that press was worth every penny of that $10k, especially when he was talking about the one he uses or built for himself will have a what 30HP motor??? I can't imagine the price of that. Also Mareko's press looked like it could withstand anti-tank shells.

I have a 25lber thanks to mr Hanson's helpful advice. But I'm torn between a press or a 100lber as my next big blacksmithing tool. I probably need professional help :D
 
2 stage, single stage, doesn't matter as far as power output. What matters is cylinder size, and PSI.

You have a given cylinder size, then you calculate tonnage based on that size plus PSI settings.

For a two stage pump at 22/11 GPM, at 2500 PSI, when under load it will produce the same tonnage as an 11 GPM single stage pump, also set to 2500 PSI, given an identical ram to push.

Sure, your single stage pump might seem to have more oomph than 2 stage pumps you've used, but were motor horsepower, ram size, and PSI accounted for when comparing?

I say these things as a guy who built and uses his own 30 ton c-frame press.

Might be dumb of me to push the issue, but I want to back Stacy up here as I feel he is technically correct. Furthermore, he knows a lot about many things and is a very helpful fellow, deserving of respect, and I'm of the opinion that he was replied to rather curtly.

Edited to add: Sorry for the thread drift, Kentucky- up 'til recently I've cut ladders in and then forged, which does take precision and focus for good results. I made myself some ladder dies recently, and they work well, but I need to make some with a tighter pitch (7/16" maybe) to get ladders as tight as I could cut them in.
I think that when I finally get my automatic surface grinder shipped over to me, that pressing then grinding will really become the clear favorite here.
 
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I have seen a couple of guys who have mills use a big face mill to knock down the ridges and then go to the surface grinder for fine tuning. I am stuck using a hard abrasive wheel on a 7 inch angle grinder for the heavy lifting part of grinding of forge/flux scale and knocking down the ridges on damascus. That scale will eat up a wheel fairly quick, but it is cheaper and faster than doing it with ceramic bets.
 
jdm61 said:
I have seen a couple of guys who have mills use a big face mill to knock down the ridges and then go to the surface grinder for fine tuning. I am stuck using a hard abrasive wheel on a 7 inch angle grinder for the heavy lifting part of grinding of forge/flux scale and knocking down the ridges on damascus. That scale will eat up a wheel fairly quick, but it is cheaper and faster than doing it with ceramic bets.
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Using a mill and surface grinder is just too slow. Get a 'snagging wheel' for your angle grinder. I stopped using regular grinding discs many years ago after spending a couple days with Hank Knickmeyer.
 
Yea, I agree there. A big 7" angle grinder will be faster, maybe not easier but faster. "Snagging wheel" I never thought about that..Work that much faster than a regular rock?
 
Kentucky said:
Yea, I agree there. A big 7" angle grinder will be faster, maybe not easier but faster. "Snagging wheel" I never thought about that..Work that much faster than a regular rock?
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2-3 times faster would be a good guess and last 40 times longer.
 
I have heard the snagging wheels also called different names. I have the one from grizzly (G7430) but searching snagging wheel does not come up on their site.

Anyway they work much better than discs and seem to last forever. One tip is to release the trigger while you are still in contact with the steel, to slow it down when you plan to stop. Otherwise the inertia keeps the wheel spinning for what seems like forever.
 
What in the wide world of sports is a snagging wheel? :D
Don Hanson III said:
Using a mill and surface grinder is just too slow. Get a 'snagging wheel' for your angle grinder. I stopped using regular grinding discs many years ago after spending a couple days with Hank Knickmeyer.
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jdm61 said:
What in the wide world of sports is a snagging wheel? :D
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Where would one acquire such a snaggly implement if one was so inclined?:D
 
I grind them in and forge flat, the reason is it gives me variety. I can do fine narrow rungs, loose slow rungs, rungs only along the edge, angled rungs... the possibilities are not endless, but are far more exhaustive than a single set of hammer dies allows.... If you want all your ladder patterns to look exactly alike, go with forging them in. Otherwise...
 
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