Large Blades with Reverse Grip?

[TIZWIN]

As a complete virgin in FMA, I'd like to ask the members of this forum about the usage of large blades (5" plus) in reverse grip, edge in. The current popularity of Shivworks/South Narc's version of pikal has had me wondering. S'narc's preference in this methodology is the shorter (2 1/2"-4") blade, as in the Disciple, the Clinch Pick, and the forthcoming Spyderco P'Kal. S'narc explains that the shorter blade is better for ECQ, and facilitates the "sewing machine" technique. Yet I have seen, IIRC, pictures of FMA practitioners wielding larger blades with reverse edge methods.

Is S'narc's preference dictated by the demands of CCW in addition to the technique itself? Are FMA practitioners following his lead when carrying in the street?

Having my Camillus Cuda Maxx (5 1/2" blade) recently converted to facilitate a "waved" opening into RGEI, I've been wondering if others have been contemplating the practicalities of such a large blade in dealing with real world, darkened alley scenarios.

Forgive my naivete' and offer me any thoughts on this matter. I thank my brothers of steel in advance for any participation in this discussion.

 

[Pahtoocara]

This question is a quagmire, much of the answer is one's personal preference.

For an example, I will use the Khukuri. There are techniques that work very well with this blade in reverse grip. The Khukuri is usually a large and heavy knife (or short sword, depending on who you ask).

My point, find something you prefer, practice it, become proficient. However, try not to say: "I would never do such-and-such."

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Since I like dividing people into two groups, I'll divide pakal fans on the internet into the Southnarc and Florio groups. The techniques and focus between the groups have some differences, though overall flavor ends up having a lot of similarities. Nevertheless, you'll see the Southnarc group tend to favor <4" knives for pakal, where the Florio group tends to be more comfortable <6". Same for blade shapes, where Southnarc group prefers low points (viz the Disciple), Florio group is also comfortable with higher points (viz the Florio and Marc Scott's knife).

I don't think Southnarc's preference is dictated by the demands of CCW in addition to the technique itself. IMO, it's more dictated by his focus on close-in, explosive, locked-wrist technique. My base is Florio, but as I've shifted my focus to more "assaultive" training (yes, I know, not a word!), I've ended up with Southnarc'ian preferences in my blades, even though I'm still applying FFS techniques.

 

[Hetman]

While I have been acquainted with Sputhnarc method for a while, I have never heard of a "Florio group", so i was wondering whther it was possible for some one here (preferebly Mr. Talmage) to give me a few poiners on what they are all about, or some links to other internet resources.
Thanx!
Just add my $.02... With a larger blade, I'd use it with edge outwards orienation, if in reverse grip. but with smaller ones, I am definitely in favor of edge-in. Smaller meaniing approximatelly 4-4.5"

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Hetman, just bear in mind the distinction I just made is my own invention, and could very well be loopy. Both groups teach pakal-based techniques, and many techniques are similar, but I was curious as to why FFS guys were willing to go with both smaller and bigger knives, both low point and high, where Southnarc's guys tend to want to stick to smaller knife with lower point. Here's an explanation of FFS:

http://www.stick-and-knife.com/system.html

You have to train with Ray to really get the full impact. It changed the way I thought about things.

Note that one of Ray's instructors, Radek, is in Slovakia: sefcik@jkd.sk Radek's a good guy, I got some private lessons from him once. Is that close enough next door to you to check it out?

 

[Hetman]

Oh, I certainly knew about Mr. Floro, i was confused with the fact that you used word Florio. This makes sense, I knew a few things about the man and his approach, mostly what I got from his site ea\rler as well as from his appearance in Sayoc's Sama-Sama video.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Heh, didn't even realize I was typing it that way. I think my fingers were just doing their own thing and slipping the "i" in there

 

[Steve Lamade]

As a complete virgin in FMA, I'd like to ask the members of this forum about the usage of large blades (5" plus) in reverse grip, edge in. The current popularity of Shivworks/South Narc's version of pikal has had me wondering. S'narc's preference in this methodology is the shorter (2 1/2"-4") blade, as in the Disciple, the Clinch Pick, and the forthcoming Spyderco P'Kal. S'narc explains that the shorter blade is better for ECQ, and facilitates the "sewing machine" technique. Yet I have seen, IIRC, pictures of FMA practitioners wielding larger blades with reverse edge methods.

Is S'narc's preference dictated by the demands of CCW in addition to the technique itself? Are FMA practitioners following his lead when carrying in the street?

Having my Camillus Cuda Maxx (5 1/2" blade) recently converted to facilitate a "waved" opening into RGEI, I've been wondering if others have been contemplating the practicalities of such a large blade in dealing with real world, darkened alley scenarios.

Forgive my naivete' and offer me any thoughts on this matter. I thank my brothers of steel in advance for any participation in this discussion.

I believe that S'narc's pakal system is influenced by Pekiti Tirsia Kali's pakal techniques - and PTK favors a smaller knife than most. The other factor to consider is that since many city dwellers can't get a CCW permit, a small knife is considered a good choice for primary weapon instead of a secondary weapon (after a firearm).

I think that if you like this kind of system, which is convenient for most city dwellers given that a fixed knife is small and light and can be accessed fairly easily, then a pakal-type knife like the "Disciple" is a good choice. Keep in mind however that no prosecutor is going to let a jury believe that you carry that thing to cut string, boxes,and salami: it's designed and marketed to be "combat" knife, and not a few DA's were paying attention to the Umali case a few years back in NYC.

With respect to a reverse grip it's often just the case that you pick up a weapon in this manner (maybe you're picking it up off the ground in a hurry, e.g.). So you might prefer to use a longer weapon in hammer grip because you have a slight advantage in reach - but will train reverse grip techniques because reverse grip happens.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[fishmonger]

Hi All,

In FFS we go up to about 5.5 to 6inches in blade length in Pikal, after that we go to a modified hammer grip .

I think the main difference with FFS and Southnarcs approach is we are more point focused rather than edge focused and use more linear movement , I think this is why we like our knives with points that raise up rather than down like clinch picks and disciples as we are usually looking for a thrust over a shear, that said I know southnarc advocates the sewing machine attack with the point.

If you watch southnarcs REM material he uses a lot of trapping and shearing to clear the center line for his thrusting attack , in FFS we tend to try for the patdown or parry at the same time as delivering the thrust,the aim is the same just the delivery differs,

Tizwin, the cudamaxx is a great choice for pikal in my opinion :thumbup:

All the best,

Jim

 

[TIZWIN]

Gentlemen, thanks for the responses. Mr. Lamade, welcome to these forums, and tell me, what is the "Umali case" to which you refer? Fishmonger, what aspects of Southnarc's technique do you consider edge focused? Is it the trapping and shearing? It is my impression that the Shivworks REM concerns itself with the point as the primary disabler of your opponent's assault. Does FFS not utilize the edge at all?

 

[Joe Talmadge]

I think the main difference with FFS and Southnarcs approach is we are more point focused rather than edge focused and use more linear movement , I think this is why we like our knives with points that raise up rather than down like clinch picks and disciples as we are usually looking for a thrust over a shear, that said I know southnarc advocates the sewing machine attack with the point.

Jim,

I know what you're saying, but I think it's stated a tad too strongly. Southnarc definitely does not look for the shear -- he's pretty clear that he looks for the thrust, and the shear is opportunistic. That said, even if it's just opportunistic, SN does shear, whereas in FFS I've never seen a shear (though Ray has mentioned to me that he's done it, I've never seen him do it live). And a low point does help the shear.

I do think in FFS our attacks seem to be a bit more linear than SN's, another reason for higher points vs lower points. I can only judge that by SN's vids and writings, but his thrust seems to be a really really tight arc, rather than the perfectly straight thrusts of FFS.

Tizwin,

Regarding your question about whether FFS concerns itself with the edge at all, speaking about my own experience strictly with FFS reverse grip, I think the only time I've felt an edge with FFS in pakal is when the defender crossblocks (a specific style of block used in FFS when the opponent is crashing in with full power and forward drive). fishmonger has a much fuller picture than me though

 

[fishmonger]

Hey Joe,

Hard to be clear in a short answer I guess, I wasnt saying southnarc goes for the shear I was saying how FFS deals with limbs and such in the way is different to Southnarcs approach as I understand it, but I quite willingly admit my knowledge of southnarcs system to be limited to one of his videos and what I have seen in his PSPs on TPI and hence limited in scope, I think we are saying the same thing here mate, we do shear in FFS mainly off the X frame posture defense but we prefer to use the live hand to clear so the thrust can be delivered.

I think the biggest difference is the grip used , we use a 2 finger and thumb pinch grip where we close the rest of the fingers on delivery of the strike whereas I believe the grip used by southnarc is more of a convolsive locked wrist grip, it does make a difference in lots of areas this point alone with regards to how we thrust , shear and cut, both ways have different strengths and weakenesses , If serious about ones safety I would seriously consider training in either system, both will serve you very well .

I guess what I was trying o say was the hooking/trapping circular movement that southnarc uses to clear his path isnt used in FFS not that he is edge focused, I hope that is a little clearer.

All the best mate,

Jim

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Yes, exactly what I was saying also!

 

[Steve Lamade]

Gentlemen, thanks for the responses. Mr. Lamade, welcome to these forums, and tell me, what is the "Umali case" to which you refer? Fishmonger, what aspects of Southnarc's technique do you consider edge focused? Is it the trapping and shearing? It is my impression that the Shivworks REM concerns itself with the point as the primary disabler of your opponent's assault. Does FFS not utilize the edge at all?

The case made the major New York City papers when it happened in 2003. Here's the gist of the story after I googled it:

http://news.asianweek.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=3ccf6ca326c3172a8de2c775f5842cab

I have my own take on the incident, but the case that the prosecution presented to the jury generally followed the line that Umali's attack was premeditated because he was an "expert" in Filipino knife fighting and that forensic evidence showed that his thrust attack to the femoral triangle involved a thrust, a turn, and a rip out of the area (Blake, the bouncer, bled out after his femoral artery was severed). At sentencing, the judge stated that Umali's knife was &#8220;the deadliest knife I&#8217;ve ever seen in a courtroom. There can be no other purpose but to injure or kill somebody.&#8221;

My point is merely that popular "combat" or "tactical" knives are going to be described in a similar manner by prosecutors and judges in the future - at least those who paid attention to the Umali case.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[victory]

The Umali case goes to prove two things

1) that instructors who teach "self-defense" techniques without teaching USE OF FORCE and CONTROL & RESTRAINT aren't teaching you how to defend yourself.

2) Using a knife in self defense is looked down upon in this country to begin with, using the Uberdeathfangjihad2000 won't help your case. I wouldn't carry a knife with the word "SHIV" in the title. I think that's what Mr. Lamade was getting at.

 

[Sun Helmet]

The Umali case goes to prove two things

1) that instructors who teach "self-defense" techniques without teaching USE OF FORCE and CONTROL & RESTRAINT aren't teaching you how to defend yourself.

Isn't that a HUGE leap in ASSUMPTION? How do YOU know that the instructors did not?

This is like saying Driving Instructors do NOT teach their students defensive driving or responsibility, because people have driven drunk or have driven cars that killed and injured people on purpose.

Perhaps we should also have a bit of CONTROL and RESTRAINT when we comment about real world cases that we know nothing about on public forums.

What is just as irresponsible are these so-called knife instructors who throw other knife instructors under the bus by using this case as if this would never happen to them. As if they have a deep insight into the moral fiber and responsibility of the instructors directly involved.

As if they aren't USING the case to sell more DVDs.

Btw, this statement is not directed to Mr. Lamade who made an entirely different point. I've seen too many posts in many forums about "responsibility" where the opportunist has no personal interaction with Umali's instructors, nor have a knowledge of the structure and curriculum of his instructors as a way to promote how the opportunist's system is better in contrast.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

 

[Steve Lamade]

Btw, this statement is not directed to Mr. Lamade who made an entirely different point. I've seen too many posts in many forums about "responsibility" where the opportunist has no personal interaction with Umali's instructors, nor have a knowledge of the structure and curriculum of his instructors as a way to promote how the opportunist's system is better in contrast.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

Rafael,

Thanks for making that clear. My point was indeed about how the legal system may choose to perceive certain kinds of knives, based at least in part on how much they paid attention to the Umali case.

My take on the issue is that while the prosecution presented a very good case that gave the jury very little choice but to convict, the "truth" about Mr. Umali's intentions is something about which only Mr. Umali can know. Mr. Umali could have been any one of us.

FWIW, I don't think that Mr. Umali's teachers bear any responsibility for his actions.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[victory]

Sun helmet...your response tells me you are intimately aware that some have mistakenly claimed that umali was a sayoc practitioner and as one your taking offence. and a quick google search tells me you've argued this on the sayoc forums before.

I made no such claim nor do i have an invested interest. I'm simply stating that the Umali case showed there are ramifications for not ingraining proper control and restraint techniques and the force continuum. I say the same thing about WWII combatives instructors who teach things like axe-hand blows to the wind pipe as a defensive technique without similar regard for the ramifications of using a death blow in real life. Years ago when i took my first defensive handgun training we spent a large amout of time covering the force continuum and i believe that any potentially lethal defensive training should take time to do the same.

Perhaps i should take the emphasis off the instruction and say that anyone who does not incorporate these thing into their training is not LEARNING self-defense.

Before we digress to far from the main point, let me post on topic. i think that using a reverse grip on a longer blade somewhat defeats the advantages of a larger blade, however, given that whole "myth of the deul", i don't see a problem with it, since the longer blades advantages are mainly in that context. In the context of southnarc's FUT, not such a big deal. As far as the shorter blade facilitating the sewing machine technique...yeah, but if you stick that big blade in and pump the handle....

 

[Sun Helmet]

Sun helmet...your response tells me you are intimately aware that some have mistakenly claimed that umali was a sayoc practitioner and as one your taking offence. and a quick google search tells me you've argued this on the sayoc forums before.

False assumption. By using the Umali case as a way to make one's own training appear to have a moral high ground is what is offensive.

I'm simply stating that the Umali case showed there are ramifications for not ingraining proper control and restraint techniques and the force continuum.

You are assuming you know what Umali's instructors did NOT teach. That's a big leap.

Perhaps i should take the emphasis off the instruction and say that anyone who does not incorporate these thing into their training is not LEARNING self-defense.

Much better, because it does not assume a link is there with the Umali case. Making such proclamations to the previous point only sets you up in a court of law... now YOU are legally responsible for your students actions? How many driving instructors go to prison when their students commit a crime? How many firearm instructors?

As you pointed out - your firearm instructors taught you about force continuum, that does not mean that if one of their firearm students decides to go postal it means the instruction was faulty or lacking.

Now this does not mean there's no irresponsible instructors out there, we just can't state it as fact in regards to the Umali case.

Yes, in the past I have argued when posters incorrectly attributed that Umali was a Sayoc student but not this time. However, it does give me a better perspective because having seen this falsely attributed to Sayoc Kali offers me an insight at how overblown some blade instructors are about their own capabilities as instructors. It also shows me they will use whatever means to peddle their wares.

My response refers to whether or not Umali's instructors were from your system or any other system. I would defend them equally. Just because one drills their students about legal and moral ramifications til the cows come home does not guarantee you that a student will respond that way.

As Mr. Lamade stated - it can happen to any of us, because no matter how much we THINK we can morally guide a student... there is no guarantee.

Perhaps the only guarantee is that someone will try to use your own misfortune as a vehicle to glorify their own training.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

 

[Sun Helmet]

In regards to edge in or edge out... in pakal grip.

What it tells you is that when both arms interact or weave past each other the edge in practitioners have their support hand in front of the blade edge. The edge out guys have their support hand behind the blade edge. The common denominator is that BOTH methods have the support hand backing the knife arm at certain angles.

So right there it tells a seasoned knife guy what type of techniques the person in front of them have available.

A minimum of 2 1/2 inches is required, unless a large animal attacks you, which is why many Filipinos have traditionally opted for a longer blade coming from that kind of environment.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali