Law enforcement question?

bcutrufelli · Sep 9, 2003

Ok here are my questions for law enforcement

1. Do you arrest people for balisong or automatic knives? Like if you were searching them and it was in the pocket or cliped? Are the chances more that it would get confinscated and the idividual let go?

2. If a knife auto and non alike is cliped to your pocket like many of us wear ours is it concealed? I mean inside the pocked with just the clip outside with maybee only the top of the bolsters showing?

3. If this was considered concealed is it likely you would stop somebody for having it like that like i you saw them in the mall per say?

10-35 · Sep 9, 2003

I can only speak for California. We do arrest people for knife violations, as there are many laws dealing with knives. Automatics over two inches, balisongs, lip stick knives, pen knives, beltbuckle knives, etc are not legal for carry. Fixed blades, and open folders are not legal to conceal. Folders can be carried concealed or exposed as long as they are folded. I have not used a visible pocket clip knife as a reason to contact anyone.

Hawkbill · Sep 9, 2003

Welcome to the forums. Questions are highly subjective, both in terms of locale and tolerance/scenario in which the LEO meets you.

1. Balisongs aren't illegal in my state, so no, that wouldn't be enough. Autos are illegal for citizens with 2 good arms, and would most likely result in a free ride to the jail. Military/LEO's are allowed (apparently our legislature trusts us with these and machineguns).

2. I don't "Confiscate/keep" any contraband I find...it all goes to property room pending some official disposition. If I'm going to bother taking it & doing the paperwork, generally I'll request charges on the person who had the bad-judgement to make me take it in the first place.

3. Carrying a knife exposed so it's clearly a knife from the outside of one's clothing isn't concealed. If it's clipped in your pocket and you're sitting in a car, though, it CAN be considered concealed.

4. If I am dealing with you and I find a legal knife on your person, you may as well prepare to be separated from it temporarilly while our transaction runs it's course, after which, if you walk, you do so fully restored to your tools.

Intent to do some bad-thing with it will also raise the charge/penalty. This is more a matter of totality of circustances. As with all free advice though, it's often worth everything you've paid for it.

Centurian · Sep 10, 2003

Basically like what 10-35 said in the state of California. However, I would add that if the person was on school grounds (k-12) with a folder capable of being locked or a fixed blade it would be a violation of 626.10 P.C. Or a fixed blade longer than 2 1/2 inches on any college or university.

As far as taking it, if it's controband than it gets put in property for distruction.

I'd also add that a lot is up to officer discretion. No I would not arrest someone who brought a small fixed blade kitchen knife to eat the apple in their lunch.

peacefuljeffrey · Sep 10, 2003

Originally posted by Centurian
As far as taking it, if it's controband than it gets put in property for distruction.

I'd also add that a lot is up to officer discretion. No I would not arrest someone who brought a small fixed blade kitchen knife to eat the apple in their lunch.

Okay, since the issue has been raised, I have a question regarding "it gets put in property for destruction."

Does it really get destroyed or does some lucky guy with an 'in' with the property guy get to take it home and give it to his kid or something?

It's hard to believe, as a non-LEO, that LEOs don't look at a nice auto or something else that was confiscated and say, "Gee, you know, what a shameful waste of a good knife. I think I'll just arrange to take it home."

---Jeffrey

SIFU1A · Sep 10, 2003

no, once ya turn it in it gets destroyed, i guess if some idiot wants to risk his job/freedom for a $100 or so knife he could take it from the property room, but again it'd be a moron.

greg

edited to add - i never saw a knife i woulda wanted anyway lol, all junk.

brownie0486 · Sep 10, 2003

We used to run across about eight knives for every gun on the streets where I worked. Most were junk as mentioned.

There is no blade length restriction in my state for fixed or straight blades so it would be a matter of what you were doing to draw my attention and presence.

If a knife is discovered during a field search [ threshold inquiry ]for my protection, if it is legal [ not an auto, dirk, dagger, etc which are reastricted ]it gets taken while I'm dealing with you. If you walk, you get it back, if you go downtown you probably can kiss it goodbye [ but not always ].

By law, contraband and confiscated items are to be turned into the state police within 30 days of the end of any pending court action. The fine to the officer for not complying is 50.00 per item.

If the blade makes it to the property lockup, it will get destroyed. Many do not make it to the property room for disposal. I know officers who have 50+ knives after 20 years on the force in the lockers at the station. Mostly junk.

Many officers are not even aware there is a statute that requires them to turn them into the Colonel of the Massachusetts State Police.

Being a knife person, I don't take anything unless I am required to [ contraband ]or unless the knife was used illegally and charges are brought forth.

If you are acting like an idiot and someone calls due to a fear based on your actions in public with a knife [ that may be just opening it or brandishing and anything in between ] it is a judgement call when I arrive on scene. The judgement as to confiscate or not will be based
on your demeanor, your explanation of what you were doing, and your reason for such actions, as well as if the knife is legal to possess in this state.

If you are brainfading and your actions show a propensity toward recklessness or idiocy, I'll take it whether it's legal or not to possess usually.

The idea is if you are going to make me work due to foolishness and brainfade in public, I might as well relieve you of the object in question which keeps me from having to return at a later date for the same reason.

If you have a problem with that, you can take it up with the chief or selectmen. YOu probably will not get the product back though.

Brownie

Centurian · Sep 10, 2003

Prior to going to an academy I worked as a non-sworn property clerk while going to college. As a "gun nut"

it drove me crazy to send good quality firearms off to be destroyed. I even mentioned that it would be nice if officer's could buy the guns for duty use. No such luck

bottom line if it is sent to be destroyed it is.

In times past, yes cops may have kept knives, fireworks ect....today is totally different. It's not worth your job or the internal investigation. I know that the American public only reads about when officers mess up and go bad. I can tell you that the American public is served by the very BEST law enforcement officers.

T. Erdelyi · Sep 10, 2003

Brownie, ya remind me of my Brother in Law, he used to tell me, "If I pull you over or stop you, your gonna get charged or a ticket, I don't stop people to pass the time of day, I have a job to do."

Charlie Fox · Sep 10, 2003

When I was on the road I would only take a knife from someone if there was a pressing need, i.e; my safety or evidence. I contacted many people with knives in sheathes or clipped inside a pocket without a problem. If I felt there might be a concern, you went into handcuffs anyway. I worked in a small town and we were able to do things a little differently; if you were a young person who was being stupid, but didn't need a ride to jail, we usually kept the knife and let you and/or your parents pick it up the next day...or we would snap the blade off and toss it. We had a problem with kids(11-17) carrying all sorts of junk "tactical" stuff, so we took a rather hard line on it. If you were carrying a pocket or sheath knife for a legitimate reason there was no problem.

allyourblood · Sep 10, 2003

Originally posted by Hawkbill
3. Carrying a knife exposed so it's clearly a knife from the outside of one's clothing isn't concealed. If it's clipped in your pocket and you're sitting in a car, though, it CAN be considered concealed.

ugh! really? i mean, i would never give a LEO the slightest reason to pull me over (6 years driving, thus far no violations or stops). in the event that it ever did happen, though, i could be charged with concealing a weapon (ie: my CRKT m16 or Leek)? i'm hoping this would be based on whether or not i act crazy or erratic.

this part goes out to any CA officers: putting aside your knife-knut leanings, how will most CA LEOs react toward my Leek or Blink that i often carry everyday? best as i can tell, legally they're NOT considered "switchblades", "dirks", "daggers", "or automatics", but in all honesty, would i lose it (assuming i were not acting suspicious or criminal)? if so, beyond "requesting a receipt", are there any decent steps i could take toward getting the blade returned to me?

abe m.

brownie0486 · Sep 11, 2003

T. Erdelyi:

I never gave a ticket on a simple traffic stop unless they told me they didn't know why I stopped them. Then they got the reason in writing. 90+ percent drove off without citations.

"excuse me maam/sir, do you know I stopped you?
"Ya, I blew the stop sign"
"Ya, I was speeding"

"No problem sir, please obey the speed limit/ stop sign in the future."

"No, I have no idea why you stopped me"
"Please give me your license and registration"--then to the cruiser to write the ticket and explain it in writing.

What I was referring to was that if I was called to a disturbance or a nuisance or possible weapons violation or illegal use of same, relative the post.

If you were being an idiot, you lost the knife. May be charges or not, but if it involved the brainfading with a knife, it was taken.

Why didn't these people carry customs?

Brownie

Benjamin Liu · Sep 11, 2003

Originally posted by Hawkbill

3. Carrying a knife exposed so it's clearly a knife from the outside of one's clothing isn't concealed. If it's clipped in your pocket and you're sitting in a car, though, it CAN be considered concealed.

This is BS!

What type of Jack-booted thug came up with this law? It us just as stupid as saying a knife clipped to a guy's right pocket is concealed because you are looking at his left side. First, you violate the 2nd Amendment and then you keep looking for as many loopholes as you can to bust people who think they are following your statist policies. Do you really wonder why people are trusting cops less and less these days?

brownie0486 · Sep 11, 2003

He didn't say it would be considered, he said it CAN be considered.

As there is always that possibility, whether written in the laws or just believed chargeable by the officer on the street [ depending on circumstances, thats the CAN area ].

I think that you certainly need to consider this a possibility, and I believe thats all he was saying really. And again, if you can be charged, doesn't mean you won't be exonerated later at trial.

Jack booted thugs don't come up with laws. Lawmakers do. The cops only enforce and interpret the written statutes. Sometimes their interpretation is incorrect and the case is dismissed at pretrial as well.

Why would you blame the cop for coming up with a law? They are the enforcement arm of the state, county, municipality, etc only.

Do I detect an attitude toward LE in that post?

Brownie

csp20108 · Sep 11, 2003

..........

knifedaddy84 · Sep 11, 2003

Originally posted by csp20108
3. Carrying a knife exposed so it's clearly a knife from the outside of one's clothing isn't concealed. If it's clipped in your pocket and you're sitting in a car, though, it CAN be considered concealed.

First, I try real hard to obey the law, second, if I am stopped I'm not worrying about a knife clipped to my pocket. If I was, I'd just make sure my shirt happened to be untucked and covering it. If he wants to write me a ticket, that's fine, I'm polite, but there's no grounds for speeding to search me or make me get out of my car.

Benjamin Liu · Sep 11, 2003

Originally posted by brownie0486

Do I detect an attitude toward LE in that post?

No. Do I detect an defensive "us against them" and superiority attitude against "civilians" (private Citizens) in your post? I am opposed to totalitariansm, laws leading up to totalitarianism, laws that can easily be abused by totalitarian wannabes, and those who enforce such laws. I am a strict Constitutionalist and those practices you defend are unConstitutional. Though the socialists in the Supreme Court whould approve, the Founders would not have supported anything like this. LEOs who support and enforce such laws are as bad as those who make them. I don't consdier "It's just my job" or "I'm only following orders" as an excuse to violate my Unalienable Rights. If you guessed that I'm not a Democrat you'd be correct.

You do not have to enforce all laws. Do you really enforce fornication laws? In many places it is also illegal for people under the age of consent to have sex with each other. They could both be charged with pedophelia. Do you guys stake out high school dances to look for offenders? The fact is that you choose not to enforce these laws but choose to enforce weapons laws because that is what the socialists in government want you to do.

R.W.Clark · Sep 11, 2003

Any folder that is legal in CA is legal to carry concealed ( provided it is closed ). So you have nothing to fear sitting in your vehicle.

What is being overlooked is a little thing that came up in case law a few years ago. It is called in-advertant concealment. If you are carrying a fixed blade legally and get into a vehicle, obscuring the knife from view, you MAY be in violation of PC 12020. However, per case law you are perfectly within the law. Your intent was not to conceal the knife, but to go about your daily life it became un-avoidable.

Really what are they teaching during in-service these days?

EXECUTION STYLE · Sep 11, 2003

Originally posted by Benjamin Liu
No. Do I detect an defensive "us against them" and superiority attitude against "civilians" (private Citizens) in your post? I am opposed to totalitariansm, laws leading up to totalitarianism, laws that can easily be abused by totalitarian wannabes, and those who enforce such laws. I am a strict Constitutionalist and those practices you defend are unConstitutional. Though the socialists in the Supreme Court whould approve, the Founders would not have supported anything like this. LEOs who support and enforce such laws are as bad as those who make them. I don't consdier "It's just my job" or "I'm only following orders" as an excuse to violate my Unalienable Rights. If you guessed that I'm not a Democrat you'd be correct.

You do not have to enforce all laws. Do you really enforce fornication laws? In many places it is also illegal for people under the age of consent to have sex with each other. They could both be charged with pedophelia. Do you guys stake out high school dances to look for offenders? The fact is that you choose not to enforce these laws but choose to enforce weapons laws because that is what the socialists in government want you to do.

The above statement deserves to be restated.

Cops are civilians.

As long as they get a paycheck, they'll enforce whatever unConstitutional laws exist.
(No, not all of them, but enough.)

enkidu · Sep 11, 2003

Cops are civilians.

No they are not. Policemen (active and retired) have MANY priviledges with regard to weapon registration, testing, and ownership which are denied non-policemen.