Law enforcement question?

Originally posted by brownie0486
I can tell you that all those who spout off about the cops and how they enforce the laws have never been vocal at the time of the stop to me. I'm sure they certainly thought I was a JBT but they didn't say it to my face. Easy to have disdain and remark about LE's actions here in never never land, how many that do it here actually tell the street officer they are JBT's or have an attitude with them at that time of the stop?
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Of course most sane people don't want to make a guy with gun mad at them. What your point? I don't walk up to gangbangers and tell them that rap music sucks and that they should get over their victimization mentality, or over to skinheads and explain to them that "ZOG" doesn't exist or tell Islamunists that their whole world veiw is warped. When you have the means of deadly force to use on someone and have the means of a massive retaliatory force backing you up, of course people will listen to you.

Now you are sounding like a bully.:rolleyes:
 
Just because something is "just my job" doesn't make it right. If they pass a law making all civilian ownership of guns illegal, will the police officers be right to go around rounding all the guns up and locking up anyone who doesn't comply? Or at some point do principles actually matter?
 
Your ethics should guide your choice of profession. If you enforce laws that are immoral, you're just as much a part of the problem as the legislature that made the law. LEO have great amounts of discretion in what they enforce, the pinheaded cops that enforce the laws that are immoral deserve their kharmic fate.
 
I am in no way insinuating that LEO's look down on or think less of non-LEO's, but I just assume it's easy to adobt a view like that.
I have felt it quite a few times here (Denmark).
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Well, I can only speak for inside the U.S. The rest of the world isn't bound by our laws.

Your ethics should guide your choice of profession. If you enforce laws that are immoral, you're just as much a part of the problem as the legislature that made the law. LEO have great amounts of discretion in what they enforce, the pinheaded cops that enforce the laws that are immoral deserve their kharmic fate.
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In every profession that I have had, including software programmer, web design, police officer (current), network administrator, I always ran into something which I either didn't believe in, or like.

Whether it was my web design work on a porn site, which I may not like or support, or writing software just to make sure that people fall into a late fee system with their bills. The point is, in jobs, sometimes a person has to do something not because of their support for the morallity or ethics of the job or task, but because they need the income.

If I didn't need money or income for my family, I would just as soon live out in the middle of nowhere, own some horses, play with ham radio towers several hundred feet high, own an outdoor gun range, and a pond to fish in.

But reality is just the opposite. I do need money and a steady income. I go out and enforce laws, as stated before, there are "shall" laws and "may" laws.

There are many times as a police officer you do your job simply by being present, or by schooling somebody. If I can end a traffic stop simply by explaining to the person that they need to get a tag, or remove the border around their license, or even stop before making a u-turn, then great. That is what I try to do most of the time.

We leave the traffic enforcement up to the STEP (traffic enforcement) officers who are specialized in that. Traffic stops are actually extremely dangerous. Normally not even worth it.

Me personally, I'm a huge 2nd ammendment supporter. I have never hasseled someone over a knife or a gun. Now if a person were to put their hand on a knife or gun during my "field interview," they would be told to remove their hand. Simple as that.

Otherwise, I simply will ask someone what they have because I'm interrested. I give people the same respect they give me. I'm sorry but when people start the conversation with "What the hell do you want you idiot?" (And it happens more than you think), I won't treat them the way I do my mother.
 
Okay, do y'all want to have some kind of circular masturbatory debate over which laws someone thinks they should or shouldn't obey because they (in their own personal opinion) feel they're silly or talk about street reality during an armed encounter with a Police Officer? Here's some reality for ya:

30 minutes of an Officer's time to write up an arrest ticket: $15

Transport to jail using City equipment (approx.): $60

Look on someone's face when they walk into the lockup and
meet the other members of the "debate team" who also decided
to pick and choose which laws they thought were silly: PRICELESS!


If anyone at all thinks that Officer discretion means ignore, disregard or debate any type of law during an armed encounter, don't bet your freedom on that. Officer discretion means you can either give some verbal counseling on what the laws are regarding a minor offense are or a ride to jail. And that verbal counseling means that the offense will not continue in the future, not that someone goes on to continue the offense because they thought they had the Constitutional right to carry whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted, however they wanted in the public venue.

If we lived in a perfect world, we wouldn't have to worry about weapons laws at all-silly or not. But we don't.

Know the laws concerning weapons in your state and don't bet your freedom on the possibility that a Police Officer just got a raise that day and is in a good mood when he/she finds you with something that might be considered prohibited--bad bet. Stay free.
 
Originally posted by Mudflap
Know the laws concerning weapons in your state and don't bet your freedom on the possibility that a Police Officer just got a raise that day and is in a good mood when he/she finds you with something that might be considered prohibited--bad bet. Stay free.
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Police don't just "find" you. Stay away from trouble and troublemakers, show some respect, and you'll never wind up in cuffs. That formula has worked for me.

But I do understand some gripes. I was stopped once (legitimately for speeding like everyone else though no one seems to ever admit it) and questioned about my Mag light in my backseat. It was uncomfortable having to answer why I had a flashlight, I am not a criminal, and I didn't like feeling like someone thought I was. Write me a ticket, but don't bust me over my flashlight.
 
If you don't complain because you feel the traffic stop was unfair, the law he stopped you for was unfare, then you why are you griping on the forums? If, in your infinite wisdom, you feel the need to berate cops for doing their job, should you not then make that attitude known to the officer on the street at the time of the stop?

After all, it takes no hutspah to talk in never never land here and bad mouth the way cops enforce "unjust" laws, making them the anti- christ in your life, but it takes conviction, real conviction to explain to the officer at the scene you feel he is furthering the cause of injustice by performing his job.

Just a heads up for most of you. Cops know what the majority of the populace think of them, they don't need to be told as a rule.

Are you now stating you would not make such remarks about cops and their job because you fear they are carrying a gun? [ And do what with it? ]. The inference sounds like you are afraid to make a comment becuiase he carries a gun and has friends who will respond in kind with the same equipment. Thats a far stretch to think you can't talk to the cop as he is armed [ like thats a threat to you for voicing your opinion? ]

The Porcupine: I certainly agree with your assessment. I worked with many of those types for 9 years. There are certainly bad cops out there who should not be law enforcers due to attitudes they carry toward any non LEO. I have actually run into them myself and been cuffed and charged for crap [ as a civilian since leaving the dept. ]due to giving my impression of their actions at the scene. [ Thats why I asked if anyone had bothered to stand behind their bad mouthing the "boys" on the street. I have, been jailed due to the "attitude", released and charges dismissed later on ].

Knowing the law, what they can and can not do on the streets [ actual experience through ther academy ]is your best defense against being abused. Sorta like an informed consumer who won't be railroaded into buying something at twice the price just because it is on sale 50% reduced. Educating ones self is most important. I know the catch phrases from the academy on my area of the country.

At a stop, I ask them a question they heard at the academy if they have an attitude. They then realize you are either a cop, excop, or atty. and back off from violating my rights at the scene.

Though I am hasstled enough, and certainly more than most with my working the streets in the private sector presently, knowledge keeps them at bay. Want to have them sit up and not violate your rights? Get the law books out, look up the statutes that are pertinent and know them from memory to call upon when necessary.

Bully? I get hasstled along with everyone else, and then some. You see me complaining here all the time about JBT's--no you don't. Complaining about it here resolves nothing, increase your knowledge and be armed for verbal judo. Just don't have an attitude with them when you do.

Brownie
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
If you don't complain because you feel the traffic stop was unfair, the law he stopped you for was unfare, then you why are you griping on the forums? If, in your infinite wisdom, you feel the need to berate cops for doing their job, should you not then make that attitude known to the officer on the street at the time of the stop?

After all, it takes no hutspah to talk in never never land here and bad mouth the way cops enforce "unjust" laws, making them the anti- christ in your life, but it takes conviction, real conviction to explain to the officer at the scene you feel he is furthering the cause of injustice by performing his job.
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As the son, grandson, and great-grandson of LEO's, I was raised not to question authority. I'm starting to overcome that. I'm trying baby steps, like carrying a knife an inch over the limit.;)
 
knifedaddy84:

I agree with that teaching. I never question their [ LE's ] authority [ having been one I understand it all too well ].

When they step over the line and start to violate my rights, I remind them about the amendments they were taught at the academy and the restrictions placed on them to prevent abuses by those who would be in a position to do so.

I have interviewed over 10,000 people in 30 years on the streets. While an LEO, I almost always engaged them in conversations at the stop. [ I did this to determine attitudes projected toward the authority of the position I was in as well as to determine if they were impaired in anyway by drugs or alcohol ].

It is so easy to draw information from people without being overbearing. I felt it was my responsibility to make sure the old ladies, old men, handi-capped people were put at ease by a smile and more gentle demeanor on the approach.

So you may not question my authority in uniform in your presence, but you may question my actions and reasoning behind those actions which affect you. If I can not articulate a reasonable response based on laws, I have made a mistake in the initial approach and threshold inquiry.

Brownie
 
Mudflap: I don't understand where you are coming from. You say that in a perfect world, we wouldn't have to worry about weapons laws. If you believe that, why are you so enthusiastic about people getting locked up for breaking these laws?
 
Plain and simple!

After the fire(s) has / have been put out and the smoke clears.....it all boils down to "officer discretion".

Legal or illegal, concealed or not concealed, bad attitude or good attitude, a lot of what transpires is up to you, and the circumstances of your interaction with the police officer.

I always leave room for latitude!:)
 
Chuck, you kinda lost me on that last statement.

If you're asking me if I'm enthusiastic about getting weapons off the streets that could be used to harm the public, another Officer or myself then the answer is yes. Law enforcement is what we do and we are obligated to the public to apply the rules they give us.

If you're asking me if I'm arresting people and placing them in jail for minor offenses without giving them a chance to defend their actions or explain themselves, then the answer is no. There is room for latitude as others have stated.

Latitude. Or better yet, character, honesty, attitude and a reasonable explanation of events. All of these things count for a lot when an Officer has to make a tough decision about a person that they just don't know personally--and everyone is a stranger until an Officer gets to know them better. Officer discretion.
 
Originally posted by Mudflap
everyone is a stranger until an Officer gets to know them better.
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Herein lies my problem. 99% of the street cops that I run into don’t treat me as a stranger. They treat me as a perp. There’s a big difference. There used to be a time when the cops actually acted like they were out there to help you. Now they mostly act like they’re out there to catch you. They stand there and try to look as emotionally detached and physically imposing as possible, whether you’ve got a flat tire or you just saved the world. This approach may help to keep control at the moment, but it leads to an utter lack of respect in the long run. If my sole relationship with the law were a couple of these types of cops, I’d have absolutely no respect for them or trust in them. I’d regard them as the enemy.

But as it happens, I work with law enforcement all day long, from 911 dispatchers to deputies to patrol officers to correction’s officers. Some of them are sensational guys. They’re friendly enough to invite over to my house for a beer after work. Some of my best and oldest friends are LEOs. Unfortunately, the majority appear to be very arrogant and self-important, especially 911 and most involved with homeland security. Cops seem to get better after they’ve reached 40 years old, but the young ones are pretty much @ssholes. The young ones who aren’t jerks end up quitting and going into another profession.

What does this all mean? Got me. My bet is that patrol officers mellow out the minute they’ve risen above patrol duty. They become helpful useful members of society. They turn into people I’d take a bullet for. But until they rise in rank and gain some wisdom, stay away from them. Maybe it’s just too hard on the conscience, enforcing unjust laws all day long. Maybe busting people’s chops for a living takes its roll. I don’t know. Just remember that a traffic cop may be a dick today, but he’ll be a helluva’ good guy in 15 years.

911 and homeland security? Don’t hold your breath. 911 Dispatchers are arrogant in the extreme, considering themselves to be far above your average citizen. So are most homeland security people, but they also have a nasty dose of “I need to take away your freedom for your own safety” attitude. They scare the **** out of me. You watch. If it ever becomes time for another American revolution, it’ll be against homeland security. They’re like Nazi SS.
 
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