Laws are so dang confusing

[styx]

Laws can be really confusing and odd. And the worst thing is sometimes it's not the law alone that confuses you, it's the police too. What one can let go the other can see as a reason to lock you up (or what ever happens at that point)

 

[tatteredmidnight]

The problem i see is that you need an educated LEO.

The OP's example of the officer he asked illustrates perfectly that police often don't know the actual knife carry ordinances. This can lead to a situation where a cop may give you trouble, or even try to confiscate the knife or detain you, even though it is legal carry.

In this case it may well be that the courts would see things your way, but you could still end up having to jump through hoops. Maybe its to get your knife back or just having to spend a few hours of your life dealing with the police instead of doing what you want to be doing. Either way, the letter of the law is often less important than what a LEO believes the letter of the law is.

LEO's are just people in uniforms. Every one is different and you will always have some hardasses who become cops. Just like every other group of people though, the majority that i have dealt with have been reasonable people trying to do their job.

 

[suchmuchfun]

Well,new knife is on the way and returning the old today or tomorrow. I live in a small town with small town police, so I just don't want to take a risk.

On the upside, was able to also order some purple paracord to wrap the wife's pink Izula. She wanted to keep her knife feminine.

 

[shotgunner11]

The problem i see is that you need an educated LEO.

The OP's example of the officer he asked illustrates perfectly that police often don't know the actual knife carry ordinances. This can lead to a situation where a cop may give you trouble, or even try to confiscate the knife or detain you, even though it is legal carry.

In this case it may well be that the courts would see things your way, but you could still end up having to jump through hoops. Maybe its to get your knife back or just having to spend a few hours of your life dealing with the police instead of doing what you want to be doing. Either way, the letter of the law is often less important than what a LEO believes the letter of the law is.

LEO's are just people in uniforms. Every one is different and you will always have some hardasses who become cops. Just like every other group of people though, the majority that i have dealt with have been reasonable people trying to do their job.

The laws are left intentionally vauge to give the individual officers a bit of play. If a undesirable is found to be carrying a knife, clear cut laws might stifle a chance to detain that person for a period of time that would be needed to uncover something bigger.

The secret is to not be an "undesirable" and keep your nose clean. Reasonable, polite and non-threatening is the name of the game.:thumbup:

As far as hardass cops go, some start out as hardasses and get worse and the rest become hardasses over time. It's a part of the job.

Law enforcement is a tough and often unappreciated job and it fundamentally changes those who persue it.

 

[Shotgun]

The secret is to not be an "undesirable" and keep your nose clean. Reasonable, polite and non-threatening is the name of the game.:thumbup:

Exactly my thoughts. Being that knife laws are vague and that I'm a "good" guy means I carry what I want, within reason. I stear clear of knives with double edges like the OP and large blades. Then again I don't need either of those things in an EDC. Is a concealed Izula legal where I am? I have no idea but then I don't whip it out on the street for all to see.

 

[wolffbite]

Even in BC the laws are somewhat vague.

My sister wants to be a cop, so she went on a ride along the other day and I asked her to find out length restrictions/whatnot for me.

He basically said there is no length restriction, and it is illegal to conceal a knife as a "weapon". Basically if you can prove within reason that the knife in your pocket is used as a tool, you should be fine. My sister brought him my SOG Flash II. He said it is fine, even carried in my pocket, but it is a TOOL, not a weapon or self-defence weapon. It is all within reason. A 12 inch bowie knife stuffed down your pants isn't exactly easy to explain as a "tool" you might use every day.

But he also said basic common sense should be used... obviously hanging a machete from your belt and walking into the bank isn't going to make people around you feel safe or comfortable with your presence.

As you guys have said, basically if you don't make yourself an "undesirable" in the eyes of the cop you should be ok, and be aware of your local knife laws as best as you can.

 

[styx]

Unfortunately that undesirable comes into play often with prejudices.

My point more being in sth like - I used to work as a roadie and while returning from one gig the cops stopped me. Makes sense since it was around 3am and there wasn't a soul on the street. Plus I had a black hoodie, olive darb cargo pants, military boots and a full backpack of sth and to top it all off I was coming from the direction of a bank. Truth be told I'd stop myself at that point. Well the conversation took a bit mostly because of me knowing the law and what they can and can not do. But ok at that point I was suspicious so no biggie. Actually it's better that they stopped me and they were doing their job (although trying to go over the legal limits) than simply sleeping on the job.

Now on another instance my friends and I were ransacked way over the legal limitations even though we were minors without the presence of our legal guardians and there was no justified reason to search us. But we were "undesirable". Who would have thought that metal fans going to a metal concert were undesirable. Now the big thing is that around the time while we (well more than just my group) were being handled like that, some 10 mins of walking distance a guy got shot. The odd thing is - it was in a club and because of some prior things the police was at the entrance and was supposed to search everyone who was coming in. So now you have to ask why is a bunch of teenagers in black shirts with some print on them threatening and a place where it should be common sense to treat everyone as a threat someone manages to shoot someone? And all that in a country where if you're not a hunter, a cop or in the military you can't have a firearm and only police and military are allowed to have handguns and carry them while on duty.

The point here is - what is undesirable? Does someone's race make him a gangbanger? Or does wearing a leather jacket make someone a racist? I know I'm going general, even though it talk about knives but it's still the fact that you can carry a SAK and have problems or you can have an assault rifle on the passenger eat in your car when pulled over and nothing will happen.
Interpretation of the law is one thing and that can mostly be cleared up without many problems. But LEOs falling under influence of some aspects of human nature is way too dangerous. It's all an edge that everyone has to balance on

 

[shotgunner11]

Unfortunately that undesirable comes into play often with prejudices.

My point more being in sth like - I used to work as a roadie and while returning from one gig the cops stopped me. Makes sense since it was around 3am and there wasn't a soul on the street. Plus I had a black hoodie, olive darb cargo pants, military boots and a full backpack of sth and to top it all off I was coming from the direction of a bank. Truth be told I'd stop myself at that point. Well the conversation took a bit mostly because of me knowing the law and what they can and can not do. But ok at that point I was suspicious so no biggie. Actually it's better that they stopped me and they were doing their job (although trying to go over the legal limits) than simply sleeping on the job.

Now on another instance my friends and I were ransacked way over the legal limitations even though we were minors without the presence of our legal guardians and there was no justified reason to search us. But we were "undesirable". Who would have thought that metal fans going to a metal concert were undesirable. Now the big thing is that around the time while we (well more than just my group) were being handled like that, some 10 mins of walking distance a guy got shot. The odd thing is - it was in a club and because of some prior things the police was at the entrance and was supposed to search everyone who was coming in. So now you have to ask why is a bunch of teenagers in black shirts with some print on them threatening and a place where it should be common sense to treat everyone as a threat someone manages to shoot someone? And all that in a country where if you're not a hunter, a cop or in the military you can't have a firearm and only police and military are allowed to have handguns and carry them while on duty.

The point here is - what is undesirable? Does someone's race make him a gangbanger? Or does wearing a leather jacket make someone a racist? I know I'm going general, even though it talk about knives but it's still the fact that you can carry a SAK and have problems or you can have an assault rifle on the passenger eat in your car when pulled over and nothing will happen.
Interpretation of the law is one thing and that can mostly be cleared up without many problems. But LEOs falling under influence of some aspects of human nature is way too dangerous. It's all an edge that everyone has to balance on

Well, unfortunately police officers are human and prejudices factor in and mistakes are made.

This day and age I really don't think police can afford to judge folks by the color of their skin or the clothes they wear. Were a very varied society today unlike in the past when particular clothes and hairstyles denoted criminal tendancies.

An officer has to use his judgement to determine the who, what, where, why and how of any given situation.

My personal rule of thumb is to always be respectful and honest with an officer and my nose is still clean at 32 years old.

when you say this:

Well the conversation took a bit mostly because of me knowing the law and what they can and can not do.

I can tell you from personal experience that thats the last thing a cop is going to want to hear and from the point that you tell them what they can't do the chances of a friendly encounter go right out the window.

Right or wrong that's the reality of the situation.

 

[cricketdave]

I can tell you from personal experience that thats the last thing a cop is going to want to hear and from the point that you tell them what they can't do the chances of a friendly encounter go right out the window.

Right or wrong that's the reality of the situation.

that is true. however as long as i know i'm in the right i will stand up for my rights as a free citizen. we don't live in a police state and i wont allow anyone to violate my rights.

i've had issues with police as well. i'm no longer trusting of most of them.

cricket

 

[styx]

That's exactly what I mean. We are varied and some things just shouldn't be.

Now as for me being an A-hole to those cops - well there were a few more details that I didn't bother writing. Facts like I answered the questions 3 times before I gave them a snappy response was left out and the fact that by holding me for so long they actually put me more in harm's way than protected anyone.

With all honestly, I'm with Cricket. I just don't trust 'em any more. Unfortunately it is personal and it comes from a few jacka$$es ruining it for the actual good guys. Hell the biggest drug lord used to live in my hood and no one said a word because he just got drugs south of the border and sold them north of the border. But when police in community program was established, ppl drove 'em off with pitchforks (not really) and torches (that was real).

 

[imaginefj]

Well I just read the penal code and I don't think double edged is illegal? Or is it?

(6) "Illegal knife" means a:

(A) knife with a blade over five and one-half inches;

(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;

(C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stiletto, and poniard;

(D) bowie knife;

(E) sword; or

(F) spear.

So anything "could" be illegal. I say its a matter of intent. I also say better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I also say, heck get the regular 4.

 

[shotgunner11]

Well I just read the penal code and I don't think double edged is illegal? Or is it?

(6) "Illegal knife" means a:

(A) knife with a blade over five and one-half inches;

(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;

(C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stiletto, and poniard;

(D) bowie knife;

(E) sword; or

(F) spear.

So anything "could" be illegal. I say its a matter of intent. I also say better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I also say, heck get the regular 4.

Yea, they define a "dagger" as a double edged blade.

And yes, anything can be construde as illegal technically, that's that wiggle room I was mentioning.

 

[shotgunner11]

that is true. however as long as i know i'm in the right i will stand up for my rights as a free citizen. we don't live in a police state and i wont allow anyone to violate my rights.

i've had issues with police as well. i'm no longer trusting of most of them.

cricket

That's exactly what I mean. We are varied and some things just shouldn't be.

Now as for me being an A-hole to those cops - well there were a few more details that I didn't bother writing. Facts like I answered the questions 3 times before I gave them a snappy response was left out and the fact that by holding me for so long they actually put me more in harm's way than protected anyone.

With all honestly, I'm with Cricket. I just don't trust 'em any more. Unfortunately it is personal and it comes from a few jacka$$es ruining it for the actual good guys. Hell the biggest drug lord used to live in my hood and no one said a word because he just got drugs south of the border and sold them north of the border. But when police in community program was established, ppl drove 'em off with pitchforks (not really) and torches (that was real).

Don't take my words as me defending the right and the wrong of it all, I've just spent alot of years very close to the system and I see how it works and why alot of the time.

There are plenty of bad cops out there, no doubt about it. The system is ripe with corruption same as any where there's money to be made.

 

[Shotgun]

I don't disagree with you guys of being leary of people in authority but there's a fine line between knowing your rights and being flippant to the police. Be respectful and polite and you'll generally have a decent encounter.

I do have to disagree with shotgunner11 though. Profiling is alive and well. Wether it's right or not is another matter.

 

[shotgunner11]

I don't disagree with you guys of being leary of people in authority but there's a fine line between knowing your rights and being flippant to the police. Be respectful and polite and you'll generally have a decent encounter.

I do have to disagree with shotgunner11 though. Profiling is alive and well. Wether it's right or not is another matter.

You never read words that I typed that said there wasn't profiling.

There absolutely is and in my opinion, rightfully so. Right or wrong all decisions are based on logic and flawed personal opinion.

It's not just cops that profile, you do it too in your everyday life, we all do. Anyone who says or pretends that they are color blind, race blind, class blind or the like is a liar. Anyone who says they don't harbor dislike for any groups of people is a liar or trying really hard to fool themselves.

Everyday that you encounter new people, meeting them formally or just walking down the street past them you have to make a personal judgement on that person. How do they make you feel, do they make you uncomfortable, do they appear to be nervous, uncomfortable...Why? Cops have a resposibility to do the same but with a target on their backs and their jobs on the line.

I'd be profiling too.

 

[LostSoul]

I have never worried about carrying a knife, regardless of size. Granted I don't carry a fixed blade into Wendy's when I go in to eat lunch, but the only times that I have been asked about having anything on me, was when I was screwing up back in the day and up against the car.

If you're caught speeding down the interstate, they're not going to jerk you out of the car and send you to prison because you have a 4" blade in your backpack. Common sense will carry you further in life than anything else guys. I'm a knife guy, outdoorsman, machete wielding Land Surveyor, but if I see a guy with a big old fixed blade strapped to his belt walking around in town, I have to wonder what kind of character he his. Now if he's walking around on a trail or in a campground, I think nothing of it, or will watch him no more than I would normally do anyone else.

With all of the paranioa in this thread, no wonder you guys get hassled when approached by a LEO.

 

[Joben]

I can tell you from personal experience that thats the last thing a cop is going to want to hear and from the point that you tell them what they can't do the chances of a friendly encounter go right out the window.

Right or wrong that's the reality of the situation.

Well that is kinda a Catch-22. And If i were a cop I would be a bit more wary and curious if someone fell back on their rights to refuse search and whatnot.

But if cops are trained properly, or have half a brain they will realize that in the end "If you're innocent you have nothing to hide" is a horrible way to run a society." It is the exact logical equivalent to "Guilty Until Proven Innocent."

Walking up to people on the street and demanding they prove that they are not criminals is abusive.

And it's been held in court that pleading the fifth can not be construed as self incrimination. That is, doing something your allowed to do is not an offense. That's simple logic.

So, they can't walk up, demand to search you for no reason, and if you refuse say that's suspicious behavior and gives them grounds. I would hope any cop that made a habit of that would soon be out of a job.

Basically, if i started getting questioned by a Cop and he asked me to allow something I thought he did not have the right, or at the least a very convincing reason to demand I would decline as politely as possible. Whether or not I had anything on me which could conceivably get me in trouble. (and believe me i try not to) Because on principle it's the correct, law abiding, public spirited thing to do. Cop plays by rules + Citizen plays by rules = Peaceful interaction. If it doesn't then somethings wrong, and it's not on my end...

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I don't disagree with you guys of being leary of people in authority but there's a fine line between knowing your rights and being flippant to the police. Be respectful and polite and you'll generally have a decent encounter.

I do have to disagree with shotgunner11 though. Profiling is alive and well. Wether it's right or not is another matter.

profiling is not illegal, and is absolutely necessary in police work.

profiling based solely on race is illegal.

 

[styx]

Don't take my words as me defending the right and the wrong of it all, I've just spent alot of years very close to the system and I see how it works and why alot of the time.

There are plenty of bad cops out there, no doubt about it. The system is ripe with corruption same as any where there's money to be made.

I think we all know you're not defensive of anyone. Actually my mother works in the police, and a lot of my friends were also sons of cops. That's why I said a few rotten ones make it bad for all.

Basically while profiling is necessary it seems that it's done the wrong way. And to be quite honest, if I had sth to hide I wouldn't say a thing about what they are doing since later that can't be used against me because the search was illegal. So reminding LEO the legal boundaries is also a good thing in a way because then they don't risk a suspension and getting fired because of a hasty mistake. Here I'm more talking about looking in my backpack, since they can look in only if I agreed to open it but they couldn't put their hands on it. But that goes a long way in different places.

For instance profiling led to ppl being erased. A country in Europe erased a lot of ppl from the system and threw them out because of their ethnic background (at least I think it's ethnic). Namely they were Gypsies. The country said that they are a problem, they cost money and pretty much that they are vermin. And that would make sense if some 85 to 90% of them weren't making an honest living, paying taxes and everything else. So not exactly the thing that pops to mind with them being beggars and living on brink of extinction. Ppl lost their houses, jobs, savings... everything. And the xenophobic nature of that country continues to grow. On a field trip in that country I witnessed an incident on the border. A man of Gypsy background was going towards Austria or Germany but they wouldn't let him pass. The man had the citizenship of the country that he was going to, owned a small business, had a family. They arrested him and deported him to his starting destination. The other 4 ppl he was traveling with could pass trough their country. Needless to say they were all bleach white.

Profiling on a small scale is needed in LEO work. Good ol' guts feeling managed to get a lot of things done. But they way it's going and having it on a large scale can have really bad results.

 

[JKHask]

You think thats bad... Im stationed out here in Ok and there Laws blow...not to mention very vague