LC edge distortion

Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
357
I got a LC and was kinda of wondering how the thin geometry would hold.

i was caressing my LC the other night and notice distortion as I ran my fingers down the blade. i looked into the TV screen and could see some walk in the 1/2 in back of the edge yet the edge itself had no damage.

i have been cutting pine around here that is pretty tough.
i guess I need to chill out or get something slightly thicker in the primary grind.

anyone else distorting?
 
Any way you can get a photo of this and post it up?

I think it would be safe to say this would be the first instance reported. I hit a rock with my LC and know of one other who did, and the only damage was a small chip that was not even to the edge of the secondary bevel, easily sharpened out (in both cases). Certainly no distortion behind the edge.

Edit: is yours the racing LC or the standard version?
 
ya my phone is full, it’s hard to see unless in correct light and I am having trouble with image hosting but I will
post one after work.
 
i would expect a rock to chip the edge. i have experienced that many times with other 3V.
I believe the standard version. i tried asking what the racing geometry was and no one responded.
mine I believe is standard. 0.025 behind the edge.
trying to line up a photo but I may need the sun or something else to show it correctly.
i felt it before I saw it. some people say the fingers are more sensitive measuring equipment then the eyes.
 
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very hard to get a good pic
 
It certainly would be possible to bend the thin bevels on a Light Chopper if you land some wonky cuts hard enough.

Lorien and I both managed to bend bevels on the original A2 prototypes, although Dan (who cut up 2X4s with his in just a few whacks) had no damage at all. The difference was not that Lorien and I hit harder than Dan, it's because Dan was more skilled as a cutter.

You're not likely to badly bend a bevel hitting something like a rock. That might cause edge damage that goes up into the bevel a little, but a properly bent primary grind comes from chopping into something deep and having the blade out of alignment with the cut. The edge bites and steers in one direction while the force of the cut is moving in a different direction. This is a wonky cut and we've all done it and is one reason I'm not allowed to use Jo's racing knife. It takes quite a bit of deflection to result in a permanent bend, but it can be done.

This is one reason I've beefed up the new 10" Medium Chopper. I loved the LC, it weighed nothing and filled a roll between camp knife and small machete, but at the end of the day it was not stout enough for some people's needs. While there have been no breaks or blowouts, there have been some tweaked bevels here and there. It's probably more common than people realize, it's a limitation for such a thin light knife. While it's practically impossible to break, if you're going to wail on it you should attempt to keep your cutting form straight and true. The flip side is, the knife is practically unbreakable, so if you manage to tweak a bevel continue to use it, it's not going to break. If anybody gets a badly bent bevel you can return it and we can straighten it some by running it through another temper cycle while it's sprung in a fixture.
 
I believe the standard version. i tried asking what the racing geometry was and no one responded.
mine I believe is standard. 0.025 behind the edge.

The light choppers were ground down to approximately .020-.025" edge thickness before sharpening which is thin. The Racing version was ground down under .015" before sharpening which is very thin.

If your knife measures .025 behind the edge that is a little on the thin side, it could be a racing light chopper, but there weren't many of those and they weren't mixed in to regular sales.

Compounding things, if memory serves me the racing knives were sharpened at 15 DPS rather than 20, so the edge bevel intersects the primary grind farther up and will measure thicker because of the more acute edge angle. And all of the knives were lightly convexed by hand which doesn't remove much meat from the primary grinds, but it does reduce the measured thickness behind the edge a little. So it will be difficult to determine which knife you have based purely on your measurement but it is most likely a standard LC.
 
ya this was from wood. I love the knife but when I got it in the mail and looked at the bevel I was like..” this may be interesting”. never the less I am digging it but will use another chopper I have for certain things around the house.
 
No knife maker enjoys having their work fail to deliver in some way, and so there is a tendency in the industry to over build things, though this comes at the detriment of cutting performance. We could make a knife that was .050 before sharpening and sharpened at 24 DPS and it would be very difficult to damage. There are already plenty of makers offering that sort of thing. We try to lean towards harder, thinner and more acute knives that cut well and we accept that "very durable" is not "ultimately durable". The higher hardness we use supports thinner geometry without these kinds of bends being common but there are limits.
 
It certainly would be possible to bend the thin bevels on a Light Chopper if you land some wonky cuts hard enough.

Lorien and I both managed to bend bevels on the original A2 prototypes, although Dan (who cut up 2X4s with his in just a few whacks) had no damage at all. The difference was not that Lorien and I hit harder than Dan, it's because Dan was more skilled as a cutter.

You're not likely to badly bend a bevel hitting something like a rock. That might cause edge damage that goes up into the bevel a little, but a properly bent primary grind comes from chopping into something deep and having the blade out of alignment with the cut. The edge bites and steers in one direction while the force of the cut is moving in a different direction. This is a wonky cut and we've all done it and is one reason I'm not allowed to use Jo's racing knife. It takes quite a bit of deflection to result in a permanent bend, but it can be done.

This is one reason I've beefed up the new 10" Medium Chopper. I loved the LC, it weighed nothing and filled a roll between camp knife and small machete, but at the end of the day it was not stout enough for some people's needs. While there have been no breaks or blowouts, there have been some tweaked bevels here and there. It's probably more common than people realize, it's a limitation for such a thin light knife. While it's practically impossible to break, if you're going to wail on it you should attempt to keep your cutting form straight and true. The flip side is, the knife is practically unbreakable, so if you manage to tweak a bevel continue to use it, it's not going to break. If anybody gets a badly bent bevel you can return it and we can straighten it some by running it through another temper cycle while it's sprung in a fixture.

actually, in my case, this kind of damage has more to do with what I'm cutting than how I cut it. I don't chop 2x4s or any other processed, dried wood, although I plan on building a bladesports type rig for when I get my comp chopper and can finally prove to Nathan that I'm a halfway decent cutter ;)

I chop seasoned dead wood and green wood, in its natural environment and in its whole state, and cut all sorts of stuff that you wouldn't call 'wood' per se, that is actually way harder on the knife- usually in awkward positions. One example is ocean spray, which is historically known around here as iron wood. It maxes out at 2" diameter most of the time, but it is very hard, (1st peoples used it for arrows and spears) and is always under tension due to the way that it grows. I've ended up with more damage to knives cutting this stuff than I have cutting through knots or anything else you'd expect in timber

just about every knife that I have which I use for cutting trail has the kind of damage described here. There are a few exceptions, which all have a lot more meat behind the secondary bevel than the LC. In almost all of these cases, the knife is just a little too heavy to carry in hand which is what I like in a trail cutter. The beauty of the LC is in its cutting ability and portability. For its weight, it is an exceptionally good performer...but it does have its limits. You pay for the ease of carry and excellent cutting performance at the expense of ultimate durability

awhile ago, a guy sent me a pm with some photos of damage he'd done to an LC. I think it was an RLC based on the height of the secondary bevel, but I digress. He had tried to baton it through a knot. Unless you're using something with a relatively useless cutting edge, (ie; a chopping edge) you are going to have damage trying to forcefully drive an acute edge through a hard, non linear grain that knots are constitued of

there is a really good reason why axes designed for different tasks exhibit either really acute or really obtuse bevels. A felling axe is a completely different tool than a maul

I've said in the past that competition style cutting is harder on the participant than it is on the knife, and that what I do is harder on the knife and easier on the participant. Common sense dictates that every tool has its limits. One would hope that common sense would inform a user automatically to avoid doing things that would damage a given tool. Alas, it is only through trial and error that we can really learn the limitations of our tools. Fortunately, CPK has done an excellent job, in my opinion, of providing a good, solid rationale behind each knife, laying out the limitations to all who care to read about them. There's only so much CPK can do to inform users of the products of the limitations of them, before the onus falls on the user

if it makes anyone feel better, none of the distortions my blades have endured have negatively impacted their performance. They still hold an edge for a really long time, and cut just as well. Your resale value might have tanked due to this damage, but rest assured, your knife will serve you well for as long as you choose to use it
 
I can't see it either. Make sure you chop in a linear motion and try not to deviate from that plane!
 
Yep I think that's it, it looks plain as day to me
 
I can see it in that picture. I have not had a problem with my LC at all, but mine is the non-racing, and I took it up to 25 DPS because I knew I was going to be using it VERY hard. Still, I can not believe that thin grind can handle the abuse I've put it through! I use it almost everyday on al types of pine, walnut trees, and even the core to really thick branches of Persian silk trees, which I was surprised how dense that stuff is.
sucks that happened. Might want to send it to Nathan to get it straightened, then take it to a thicker edge. Straight cutting/chopping is key too. Or maybe sell it after it is straightened and go for the medium chopper?
 
Nate,

Thanks for the explanations and philosophy behind the LC and MC designs (that was along the lines of my assumptions, and makes me think the MC really could be my ideal large camp knife).

As to chopping technique, I can certainly see your point (as well as Lorien's about chopping through weirdly patterned wood in the wild).

You can easily see Dan's skill and experience in any videos of him chopping, not just in how he uses his whole body to efficiently generate power, but ESPECIALLY in his accuracy and precision, hitting precisely in the same cut, on the second stroke, and with proper blade angle.

I learned about that a long time ago, first from my dad teaching me bushcraft, and then from Japanese sword arts.

I've seen someone permanently bend a five-figure authentic shinken during tameshigiri (practice cutting on rolled tatami targets) due to crappy technique/blade angle. More money than skill (instructor advised them to get/use a cheaper sword for tameshigiri practice, but the advice was ignored).
 
A little off-topic, but in reference to Lorien's post:

Lorien, have you used/considered carrying a Silky saw for your trail clearing?

I find them to be far more energy efficient when cross-cutting anything thicker than ~4", vs chopping with a long(ish) blade. The harder/denser the wood, the greater the advantage to the saw.

They aren't particularly heavy either. I generally don't process wood thicker than 6" (8" would be about the thickest I bother with), and I used to carry a Silky Super Accel 210mm (7 oz). I now have the curved Ultra Accel 240mm (10.5 oz). The curved blade has a significant speed/efficiency advantage, and the slightly longer blade handles 6" (or 8") diameters more easily.

I've even used the small 210mm once, on a ~12" tree that had fallen across a path. I simply sawed V-notches, before sawing through the middle, and it didn't take very long, owing to the efficiency of the saw.
 
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