Leaf spring knife or knives

M

M/S Blacksmithing

Joined
Jul 21, 2016
Messages
49
Hey, I just joined this group and I am wondering does anyone know we're to get images of templates of blades?And I am wanting to make a blade from an old RV leaf spring it's from the seventys if that matters .I have done some research on this and I have found both negative and positive things utilizing this scrap. Has anyone of you done a blade from this and how did it come out?also what is the best way to harden and heat treat this piece?

Thanks, Martin
 
Making a blade out of a leaf spring is always a crapshoot, because it could be one of a variety of steels, each with their own HT procedure. It's probably best to grab some from a place like New Jersey Steel baron or Alpha Knife supply, cause you know what you're gonna get.
 
There's a Knife makers forum here, I bet they'll have all the answers you're looking for.
 
Eagle Scoute

I agree but it speaks great weekend know it is spring steel, I could always cut some off and running it threw a few processes before I start oil, water,air a guess it's a potential shoot ya know, just wanted try something I haven't done yet and thought I'd ask a few questions and get some real information on it rather than just the youtube.
 
Wayne Goddard wrote a book on making knives including using various "found" materials. Youtube videos can be informative but you might have to wade through a lot of them to find the good ones. There are some stickied threads in the knifemaking forums here that will provide good beginner information.

A leaf spring should be a relatively straightforward carbon steel that you could heat treat with reasonable equipment but it still might require some experimenting to get it where you want it.

If you buy blade steel from a supplier you can get the thickness you want and that alone would save you a lot of work. People also sometimes use old files and industrial saw blades which save some work.
 
Yeah the youtube thing the wading sucks I did however find a few like walter soralls if that is spelt right and a few others that I can't think of off the top of my head. Thanks for the pointers
 
And there is always the option to use a worn-out machinist file for making a blade. If you can read the stamp at least then you'll know (or be able to find out) what sort of metallurgy you're dealing with. Ford of Brazil springs, Citroen, Packard, World Famous, Studebaker or Datsun, to me, is a crap shoot. $1 worth of material and $200 worth of labour at very least should go forward with something that is 'known'.
 
Go for it if you want...it's only time wasted if you already have the materials. On the other hand, you can get 1ft of 1084 for about $10 or so and you know you have good steel and can find the exact heat treat recipe for it. As for templates your going to have a tough time. Just go to Google or something and search images of the style you want. Then get some paper out and sketch it. Then cut or forge it close and grind the rest. Good luck and welcome to Shop Talk.
 
The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V38

Answers to a student are different than to machinist
With members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or neighbour.
Join our community;fill out your profile with (Country, State, City), age, education, work and hobbies so we get a sense of who you are.

Basics
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-PDF
http://jubilee101.com/subscription/pdf/Tools/Making-Simple-Knives---12pages.pdf

Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694673

Things I Advise New Makers Against-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/articles/nw1/scales1.htm
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Wheeler-s-Steel-*-Stuck-in-the-metal-with-you
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/956343-Damascus-integral-tag-along

Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9435307&postcount=43

BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Books I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, organized, available inexpensive.


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elementarymachin00palmrich/elementarymachin00palmrich.pdf

The Complete Practical Machinist-1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/items/completepractic00rosegoog/completepractic00rosegoog.pdf
Right Click and save

The $50 knife Shop-not recommended
Great title, but NOT gospel.
Forging is NOT necessary; file and grind (stock removal)

"Goop Quench" is Bullsh*t
Back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to steel type;
Grocery store canola oil works for 1084

Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat
Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spikes, start with a new known steel
Good heat treat needs accurate temperature control and full quench
Proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo is inexpensive and quench in Canola

Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders plans are now free on the web


Video

Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it daily for 10 days http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it daily for 10 days http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeStuff/SafetyVideo.wmv

Many videos are available, some better than others

The best beginner videos I have seen:
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
Paul Long's sheath work & videos are recommended, but advanced-with inlays, tooling and machine stitching

Green Pete's Free Video
Make a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat
Use a piece of known 1084 steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools
"Green Pete" posted it free
Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too – search knifemaking torrents

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/499...femaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

Videos for rent,read the reviews, Some good, some bad, expect to wait months and there have been no new videos in years.
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking


Knife Design:
Think thin, small, simple and fixed
Forget Damascus, swords, 1/4” thick stock, saw-teeth, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife

Look at hundreds of photos
Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Bob Engnath Patterns PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx

http://knifemaking.altervista.org/index_disegni_en.html

Start with a drawing and post it before you work on steel, we love photos and can comment before you start
French curves, graph paper and erasers are vital tools
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bHFtVNs9tWA/TEj5Quiq1ZI/AAAAAAAAAI0/rn2EoHoXpVc/s1600/The+French+Curve.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1147466-How?p=13120810#post13120810

Then a cardboard cutout template & with handles, pins and such
Use playdough to shape a handle, good handles are not flat

http://versteegblades.com/knife-handle-design/

How to post a photo
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...AL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums



Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw

Nick Wheeler- Hand sanding 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes is useless for knives
Buy new known 1/8” annealed blade steel
Forget lawnmower blades ,files, railroad spikes and other unknown junkyard steels
For the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use known good steel
You will spend more money on sandpaper or soda pop than you will for steel

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, Elmax plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheap & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160
His telephone service is better than his website.

Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating $10 or $15 for perfect results

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs
http://www.buckknives.com/about-knives/heat-treating/
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

FAQ's
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html

1095 is a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment to HT themselves
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 CPM-s35vn Elmax, and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 due to minimum charges


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget Goop Quench and Motor oil

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type
Explanation and classification oil speeds
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?28197-Hardening-II-Quenching

Grocery store canola oil works well -if you use the right steel like 1084

Brine and water are cheap for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095, but use fast oils Parks 50 & Houghton Houghto Quench K
If you use water or brine, expect broken blades

Hot steel beats plastic, Don't quench in plastic pail

Glue – Epoxy
Use new slow setting 30 min high strength epoxy to attach handles and seal out moisture
Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work
prep, measure, mix are key in gluing.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best
Ensure the surface is clean including fingerprints, wear vinyl or nitrile gloves
Use Acetone or Blasting
Don't over-clamp.A “glue starved joint” is weak

West Systems G Flex http://www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy/
Find it locally http://www.westsystem.com/ss/where-to-buy/
Brownell's Acraglas
JB Weld-leaves a grey line


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it by hand with files and abrasive like the Green Pete video.
Use 1084 instead of a file, spheroid annealed steel is butter soft

Stacy - 10 Tools
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1049666-Ten-Tools?p=11983527#post11983527

Filing jigs
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg
Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8152684286_312b9fc8da_b.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ#t=330

Grinders
A professional three or four wheel 2x72 is worth it
In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
Tracking problems are usually solved with belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Entry Level Grinders
Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder
Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
There are some things that need to be modified
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62944
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_e1p6D-UyycWHd2V0VMTFVJMDQ/edit

NWG No Weld Grinder $25 plans
http://usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
Every maker has a preference, new belts come out all the time, search for recent info
Ceramic, trizact and structured belts are expensive and have long life. Aluminium oxide are cheap and wear quickly
Some belts have rigid backing, J-flex have soft backing and can blend curves.
Blaze and Cubitron are popular


VFD Variable Speed made simple

Step pulleys are not as cheap as you think
Maska steel pulleys, plus shaft, bearings, belt

It all adds up to 1/2 the price of a sealed NEMA 4 VFD like a KB Electronics KBAC-27D

I like direct drive with no belts, a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with fine instant control.

NEMA 1 VFD’s metallic dust intrusion will smoke it.


Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you some use 1700 RPM at double speed.
Make sure it has a foot base for the KMG and NWG, a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with $100 shipping to Canada I save $ on used motors

The 1.5 HP combination is the most common
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.


VFD
KBAC-27D
http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_AC_Drives_Inverters/AC_Drives_NEMA_4X.html
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbda_manual.pdf
Use the Distributor Locator to find a local source, online sources may be cheaper.

There are cheaper, but the only VFD I found that runs a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC-27D

It is NEMA 4 sealed
Good community and company support, manuals, diagrams, photos and settings.

Travis W reports running 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html


Safety Equipment
Protect -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.

If you can't breathe, nothing else matters.

Wearing a mask and glasses on the top of your head doesn't Count.

The minimum I use are silicone half masks with P100 Filter
The soft silicone masks fit better
3M 7500
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...Ox_Uev7qe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=CH7500FP.pdf

and North 7700
http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-770030L-Silicone-Respirator/dp/B002C08YCW
http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100-P100-Particulate-Cartridge/dp/B000UH6PSE/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b.

Use VOC & P100 combo cartridge for acetone and glue fumes.
Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes of face get fitted in person

Shave, test the fit every time.

For beards
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Search

This searches BF well.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

Get rich making knives ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...knife-making-worth-it?p=11980504#post11980504

Visit a shop in person
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...stions-for-visiting-an-established-knifemaker
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1166688-How-to-get-a-shop-invite

V38 July 2015 Shop visit Etiquette
Countavatar.jpg
 
Most automotive leafsprings are quite thick to start with. Its alot of effort just work it thin enough for a typical knifeblade.
At those thickness can work well making Slicks, Froes or similar tools.
With that said, Nothing wrong with using them. Just be aware its unknown steel composition, heat treating is a crapshoot.
 
Try it out! Some leaf springs make pretty good knives. Take the whole stack if you can, that way when you figure out your ht, you'll be able to make more knives without having to eqperiment with that. If your forging, you can get a lot of knives out of a set. Rough out a knife and try a ht for 5160. Heat to non magnetic and just a little more and quench in something like canola oil heated up to 130-140f. Check with a file to see if it skates then hit it and see if you can break it easily. If the file skates/ it breaks, it means it hardened, if not try a different ht. Try a recipie for something else that is known to be used for leaf spring. Once your comfortable that you got it hard, make your knife harden it and temper it according to whatever recipie worked for it. If the first thing worked, I'd temper around 400f twice for an hour each. As for design, make it similar to something you like. If your not happy with the finished product, make another. Knife making is addictive, I don't suspect you'll stop after your first.
I don't think there's anything wrong with using scrap, in fact i find reclaiming materials feels "right". The thing is you will use up time and resources getting the proper heat treat, so it is faster and cheaper to use known steel. Also, you may not even be able to get the steel to harden but even if it won't, you will have gotten to practice your forging/ grinding skills. That right there is time well spent, and that experience is something that money can't buy

-Colin
 
Welcome to Shop Talk.
As you see, we try and steer new makers to starting with new steel. That said, if using a found steel, old files and leaf springs are probably the most common.

As far as templates, look up the "Lloyd Harding" knife templates ( the are in the stickys with the Bob Engnath templates). There are hundreds of templates in that file.
 
There are a lot of really good knifemakers in Michigan. A good way to meet them is to attend a hammer-in or find a knifemaker group in your area. Also, Michigan is a big state. You might want to change your profile to say city and state.




I see you are retired at 40. Did you do well in life and opted to do that or was it what life handed to you?
 
Stacy sometimes life throws you a curve ball and you just have to eat it but My health is good just a drastic chain of events changed my life ,I think of it as a good thing though, I was on call 24,7 ,365 a year the down side is no time at all for my family now it's almost like I get a redo except I missed a lot of my boys growing up on the other hand God granted us with a nother chance in that respect also now we have 3 boys ages 17,13,2 now no I don't feel like it was to early except the money thing gets to me now and then aside of that I have a tremendous amount of time now so I thought I'd learn something that has interested me for sometime now just never had the time now guess what ,All the time ever in the world.
 
Enjoy life and learn on the way. Meeting other smiths and seeing their shops is a good start.

Read and learn as much basic HT and knife steel metallurgy as you can.

Look at a lot of knives by the big names. They know what is good and what isn't.

Start simple. The drop point hunter ( Loveless style) is the best starting knife to learn on. 1084 is a really good starter steel. It is cheap, easy to HT with minimum equipment. well accepted by others, ... and makes a great knife.
 
Thanks for the pointers. I will do just that I have already been doing research and have 1 Bladesmith that makes knives near me but the only catch to him is he is also retired and only makes knives in the winter. I really don't want to wait that long to start this adventure. It will be nice to have something to do this winter .The youtube is a ok place to learn but you have to wade through the bs before you come across something worth watching. Yah no I found Walter Sorrells his stuff is great and I think it's Groue or something like that he donate lot with basic tools and as far as I can tell it's all stock removal which is cool but I am wanting to forge knives I just started that and I am using a piece of RR for an anvil on account they are so dam expensive. I have an opportunity to get a 300 Fisher for 600 but I know nothing about anvils and am not sure if it is a ASO or not.I realize that even an ASO for starters is better than nothing but when I get one I don't want to have to replace it for quite some time or even at all.The other tools that I would love to have is a decent belt grinder only to give up the files from working so hard.In the end I have a great desire to create stuff currently I am an oil painter and am addicted to that serious now I am having that same urge and want to make blades and whatever else I can manage without the heavy tools like a power hammer and a press or as much as this is something I want I know this is way out of reach for now but hopefully not for ever.My wife says that when I get interested in something I take it to the extreme first it was drugs kicked that then oilpainting which is something I have a deep passion for and now it's a nother additional smithing. At least these are healthy addictions not like that other shit (drugs).I have been clean for several years and will never turn back.I just like she said feed it with other stuff too the extreme. So here I am and am eager to learn as much as I can and become good at what I have learned.

Thanks for your comment everything positive helps me gain the knowledge I need to move forward with this adventure.

Sincerely, Martin
 
Oh to add I worked for a company that installed refractory in steel mills so I am fermilur with molten iron steel the basic process of turning iron into steel and most of all refractory material such as firebrick, castable, grout, gunnite, shot create K-Wool and others.just to let all know of my experience with the beginning of this adventure. To add any help will be greatly appreciated it would be even better if I could find a smith that would take me under his/her wing and teach me everything they know in a probono fashion. So if there is anyone out there that is willing to share there knowledge on a personal level so to speak. I say get a hold of me I would be honored for this experience in help fulfilling my newest dream/adventure.

Thanks, Martin
 
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