least condensing sleeping pad?

D

D-R0CK

Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
166
Alright, I'm pretty sick of going to sleep and waking up with the underside of my bag wet (yeah, I know, hardy har har) I just went on a little solo trip and it got down to 15 F, and my back was warm for the first couple of hours, and got progressively colder as my bag between my closed cell pad and back slowly dampened. I'm a pretty sweaty guy, but my tent is pretty well sorted, and my bag breathes really well. My feet were off the mat and dry (but chilly), as was my head. I just need a pad that doesn't condense. What better options do I have for insulating against the ground? I've heard maybe adding a fleece blanket? That kinda just sounds like adding a literal wet blanket.

I know a cot is superior in many ways, but it just isn't conducive to backpacking. I haven't tried an inflatable, does anyone have a model they recommend? I've tried hammock-ing but you lose too much utility as a shelter for winter camping.
 
All pads will trap water to some degree. you could try one of the skeletonized inflatables, but i think they only work for back sleepers, and its an expensive experiment. I think you are loosing too much heat through your pad, and thats letting the water sit, rather than disperse, I would go for a middle thickness 3/4 thermarest as a start. Getting more insulation under you might help. Another option is a cotton sheet over the mat, to give the moisture somewhere to go besides your bag. A silk bag liner can also help move that moisture out to where it can evaporate rather than condense. But I think more insulation under you will help in general. If that doesn't do it, maybe look into quilts as that will give you much more airflow when its warmer.

In my experience a bag that is way overkill can get damp since your body doesn't thermoregulate as well at night, but one that is too light can as well, since you don't hold in enough heat, and the water forms up that way. I'm assuming you are using a synthetic bag?

To be fair, I've not had that problem as much, my problem has been going to sleep when its too warm, then chilling when the temp drops. I've also got limited experience with CCF, I've only used them a couple times, and got a thermarest as soon as I could. I've only had sweat problems with the thermarest when using it on its own, as bare skin against the rubber-fabric gets uncomfortable. But I think 15F is too cold for CCF, especially if the ground is that temp. There are lots of really good mats on the market now, I would be looking for something with an R value of 3.5 or higher budget will dictate which one you go for, read up on outdoorgearlab, and see what you think. Obviously the lighter options will be more expensive, but they have come a long way in the last few years.
 
Layer another sleeping pad, or even two if necessary, to make sure you have enough insulation against the ground. It's likely with just one pad, you were getting condensation from not having enough insulation. There are some very good single pads out there, but they are pretty expensive, and the foam ones do nicely as a base pad for layering. You may find it necessary to use something to hold the pads together though, as they can tend to slide off of each other if you move a lot while sleeping.
 
gadgetgeek has it. It's too cold under your bag and the warm moist air we all generate is reaching dew point (turning to liquid). You need more insulation so the temp under your bag is higher.
 
OldNavy said:
EXPED Synmat 9:
http://www.exped.com/international/en/product-category/mats/synmat-9-lw-terracotta
I have the long/wide. Have used it above 6,ooo ft. at Lassen Park with snow still on the ground. you still need to have some sort
of ground tarp/vapor barrier underneath. I use a cheap tarp from home depot, a good light weight option is Tyvek
Building wrap,
Click to expand...
One thing people should know about Tyvek is that while it is very light (~1.85 oz per sqyd), it is noisy as all get out. Once you get a new sheet run it through two wash cycles in your washing machine without soap. Do not put it in the dryer. Hang it to dry. Then cut it to size. That will cut down the noise significantly. More and more backpackers are using polycro window shrink wrap as a ground cloth. While I too consider a ground cloth necessary, people should also understand they really add nothing to the R value under you.
 
Leghog, in normal conditions I'd say yes, but if you were on wet ground, you would have higher conduction losses. (also a miserable wet sleep) but I do agree with you, you don't gain much at all for actual insulation. you need an air pocket to do that, ideal lots of little ones. Keeping gear clean and dry is an advantage, but more from a longevity standpoint as well.

Oldnavy, depends a lot on the tent, in snow I'd feel comfortable if all I had was the floor of my tent, but its a fairly heavy PU nylon. in an ultralight tent, an additional layer would be good. Of course these days I avoid snow:D Vapor barriers can give a massive advantage under the right conditions and use, but can be a miserable soggy mess under the wrong ones. I don't think water coming up was nearly as much of a problem as just a lack of insulation. Of course even if that isn't the entire problem, I can't imagine only sleeping on CCF anymore. the comfort increase alone with an upgraded mat will be worth it for D-rock, then he can figure out everything else.
 
I too run really warm, but have been using the thermarest neoair xtherm long for about two years now and swear by them. I did away with my sleeping bag for a lighter, warmer, more breatheable alpaca blanket instead. Only downside is they are a little pricey so may not be in everyone's budget, but worth the money if you're out in very cold temps very often. Also wearing silk at night helps wick alot of that moisture away, or even thin merino.
 
As temperatures drop, I'm a big fan of using vapor barrier shirts to stay warmer and keep my sleep system drier.

Our bodies produce sweat when we are hot and, at a lower rate, when the microclimate near the skin is dry. The latter is sometimes called "insenisble" sweat because we don't notice it.

I remember waking up on a cold bivy once and several people in the party had frost on the outer shell of their bags in large spots, right over their groins and chest/arm pits - the two parts of the body that put out the most moisture.

The idea of a vapor barrier shirt is counter-intuitive. The idea is to create a moist micro climate near the skin, which tells the body to shut down the insensible sweat response. Thus, less sweat moisture is driven out to your insulation layers where it will inevitably condense. (NOTE: Even people who think their bags are dry are generally loading bags with sweat; it's just condensing inside or near the outer layer of the system.)

Evaporation also cools the skin and I find I get less of those late night "chills". In short, I sleep warmer as well as drier.

A full blown VB shirt is non-breathable. Stephanson's Warmlite still sells them I believe. I don't get mine out till temps get down in 15F or lower range.

Will Steger used breathable Pertex windshirts on his Antarctic ski crossing. Although it's worth noting that their bags froze up with sweat so much they couldn't be packed away and weighed something crazy like over 20 lbs. I will use a windshirt to sleep in starting in the 50s or so. Any windshirt will do, though something like the Marmot DriClime shirt is excellent.

Down in the low 40s throuh 30s, I'll use a waterproof breathable jacket, assuming it is dry.

In all cases, I like long sleeve polyester under the vapor liner layer and like to have the waist tight so as to not exhaust out all the humid air when I roll over, as that will cause an instant chill.

Another factor in staying dry from the inside at night is to go to bed as dry as possible. I generally don't sleep in my trail clothing, especially if it is soaked with sweat or rain. I keep a dry pair of polyester tops and bottoms in my pack for sleeping.

Hope something here hleps

-Dave
 
Pinnah, did you find you had to get used to it? I absolutely cannot stand feeling damp. I generally do a merino base when its cold and a light synthetic (like underarmor) when its hot. In the few times I've had to use a heat-sheet even though I was warm-ish, the damp was so uncomfortable I had trouble sleeping. I like to think I can put up with a lot, but thats one I just can't. I will say though, silk is fantastic, especially with a taffeta nylon bag. So much more comfort.
 
Geek,

There were two things that I had to get used to.

First, as I noted, I found I really like to have the VB (windshirt, rain jacket, or true VB respectively as it gets colder) zipped all the way up to my chin and sealed off at the bottom (either with a draw string or tucked into the elastic band of a lower). Otherwise, when I roll over, the humid air exhausts out causing instant evaporation and a chill.

Second, this definitely reduces the comfort range of my insulation. That is, if the temperature warms up in the night, I'll notice it because I'm over heating pretty quick. Without the VB shirt, I'm more likely to sleep while warm, pumping out sweat into my sleeping bag. So, I've had to learn that when I wake up warm, I need to open my sleeping bag a bit to control the heat.

In balance, it allows me to sleep warmer in cold conditions, but it does take some getting used to.

Oh!!! Mornings are harder in that you have to take the VB off and hwen you do, you chill pretty quickly.
 
Good to know. Thanks for the info. I suppose relative humidity makes a difference, it stays pretty high here. I don't think it will be for me, but everything helps.
 
With closed cell foam pads, have you tried the ones with ridges, bumps or other raised patterns?, they might help. They provide a bit of air space for ventilation. Any condensation would be in the "valleys" instead of against the bag.

For inflatable, the Exped models are nice. When it's cold, use it insulated side up. In warm temps, flip it over, insulated side down.
 
Thanks all. I actually bought a thermarest pad, the "hiker" yesterday. Got it on a whim last night when i just went to go buy 12 gauge shells.

It looks like a Walmart exclusive, and isn't even on the thermarest website (though it gives the address right on the packaging?)

It seems pretty bare bones, but $50 for a self inflating genuine thermarest, made in America with a lifetime warrantee was too good to resist.

For anyone interested in stats, it's a standard 1.5" x 20" x 72" rectangular mat with he familiar self inflating system.

I'll come back and update this thread with how it works, I'll try to get out this week.

Thanks all!
 
Good stuff man. It may just be the older version as I think they are moving away from the square ones, but no big, 50$ is a steal. Try a few different things, everyone finds a tension that works for them. I like mine a bit more firm, so I'll add a breath and a half to mine once its puffed up. But in the hammock I bleed it down about half way.
 
Get yourself a Thermarest Neo Air All Seasons & a larger pump-sack (so you don't get moisture in it from blowing it up, the one that comes with it is a bit too small imo).

They're not cheap but totally worth it; r value of 4,9 (you can sleep on ice with it!), packs down to the size of a Nalgene bottle, weighs almost nothing and very it's durable.
 
Yeah, the package says the R value is 4.8 (higher than the vaunted "trekker") and suitable for "any season", according to the same packaging.

The thickness as listed on the pack by thermarest is 1.5", the texture is moderately grippy, and weight is 2 lbs 4 oz according to the packaging.

My only complaint is the pack size is not that small, it's a cylindrical stuff sack with no compression, 7" diameter by 24" length, yeesh. No repair kit included either.

I'd be happy to take some pictures for you if you're interested.
 
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