Leather Wet Forming Retention Issues

[Horsewright]

Different leathers shrink at different rates too. I'm pretty big on using a welt cut from the same side as the sheath. Many times I've seen it where the welt when not so cut, will shrink more than the sheath. Easy enough to fix if you have a sander and room on your stitching line, but....Easier yet not to do it in the first place. I often stretch wet leather. Did last night. One sheath in the batch was a little tight around the throat for its knife. I used a pair of needle nose pliers inside and opened them up stretching the leather where it needed to be stretched.

 

[C_Claycomb]

I never had leather stretch when wetted.
I always make a measuring strip of the leather I'll be using. That way you know how wide a piece of leather you need to get a tight fit.
Try it with a wet strip if that is what your leather does, but it sounds strange to me.

Maybe it is the source of our respective hides...??? Different kinds of cows? I haven't made that many sheaths, so have only bought big pieces (cannot now even remember whether they were sides or shoulders) on two or three occasions and that has been all I have needed. All the leather has behaved the same though. All sourced from Tandy in the UK. I just assumed all veg tan leather did that.

I made (sort of) use of your suggestion for using a strip of leather, just trimmed a bit of the better quality of the two hides I have, I would say its long enough to get around 60% of the handle of one of my knives. Split it, wetted one half, stretched it, measured, left to dry and measured again. It moved a good 1/8th inch and kept nearly all of it upon drying. Not a lot one might say, but my experience has been its enough to change a too-tight initial dry fit into a good but snug fit after wetting/drying, or to make a nice medium close initial dry fit feel a bit loose after wetting to get some definition moulding.
Leather stretch by Last Scratch, on Flickr

All the best

Chris

 

[RayseM]

Well I was gonna point ya to the pancake tutorial at the top of the page in the stickies. But it and some of the others appear to be broken. The tutorial details how I get a snap in firm retention from wet molding and then drying in the oven. I do this to all my sheaths.
I soak in warm water that has Pro Carv in it till the sheath starts to sink. I'll turn the sheath over in the water at this point and usually they will sink then. Take em out of the water and place on a clean towel. When leather is wet its pretty susceptible to stray marks and dust and grime etc so the towel protects from that. I'll punch slots if a pancake or a slotted or a slot and loop sheath, trim the bottom edges even, sand the edges, edge the edges and rub the edges, all before wet molding. If these processes have taken too much time (I work in batches , so I might be working on anywhere from ten to 30 sheaths at a time usually), I'll rapidly redunk the sheath. If the color is coming back and is almost how it was then its too dry. While the leather will still mold at this stage it will take on dark marks where you are rubbing with your forming tools (I use a small block of ligum vitae wood with the corners rounded and smoothed). So that is why I redunk it so I don't get those darker marks around the outline of the knife. If the knife has a carbon steel blade I'll lightly oil it first and then insert the knife into the sheath. I use a pair of needle nose pliers to open up the sheath for the knife. This also helps keep the interior of the sheath straight so that you are not putting the knife through the wet leather. Form the leather to the knife by rubbing with modeling tools. Lots of things can be used. Smooth bone, antler, wood etc. I use my fingers for some final smoothing sometimes if I leave a mark with the block. Take the knife out of the sheath and wipe the blade down again. I then preheat the oven in the kitchen to 178 degrees. I'll place the rack in the center of the oven and place the sheath on four sheets of card stock and then place on the rack. I'll set a timer for one hour. I'll then flip the sheath over at the one hour mark and set the timer again for an hour. At the second buzzer I flip the sheath back over again and set the timer again for an hour. After this final buzzer I take the sheath out of the oven. Getting leather wet does not hurt it. Allowing it to dry without reconditioning it will hurt your leather. As soon as the sheaths come out, I oil them very lightly with prewarmed 100 percent neatsfoot oil. VERY LIGHTLY. I'll allow them to set over night and then do the final rubbing of the edges and put some finish on the sheaths they be done. Besides sheaths I do this to holsters as well:

I see this today for the first time so allow me to resurrect this old post. A few questions please Horsewright ~

• Do I understand correctly that while the sheath is wet you punch holes or slots as needed and then trim and sand the wet sheath?

• Is the stitching done before the soaking? I would think so, I can't imagine stitching a wet sheath but as all the parts are glued together at this point I'm just asking to be certain I stick with the program.

• Then AFTER these details, if the sheath has dried too much you re-soak it but otherwise ready to insert the knife for forming?

* With the knife still inserted and the sheath formed you put it in the heated oven? You mention to wipe the blade down again with oil after the sheath is formed but not clear if you reinsert it into the formed sheath before the heat treat.

• What other oil or treatment might serve as a first after oven treatment? I don't have neatsfoot oil. I have a Mink Oil /beeswax treatment by Montana Pitch-Blend
that was recommended by John of Reameadow. Seems to do it all very well so I never thought to use another product. I do have other mink oils and some mineral oil if the MPB isn't appropriate.

Thanks for your help. I'm getting there, on the shoulders of you guys and I do appreciate your support.

 

[Horsewright]

I see this today for the first time so allow me to resurrect this old post. A few questions please Horsewright ~

• Do I understand correctly that while the sheath is wet you punch holes or slots as needed and then trim and sand the wet sheath?

• Is the stitching done before the soaking? I would think so, I can't imagine stitching a wet sheath but as all the parts are glued together at this point I'm just asking to be certain I stick with the program.

• Then AFTER these details, if the sheath has dried too much you re-soak it but otherwise ready to insert the knife for forming?

* With the knife still inserted and the sheath formed you put it in the heated oven? You mention to wipe the blade down again with oil after the sheath is formed but not clear if you reinsert it into the formed sheath before the heat treat.

• What other oil or treatment might serve as a first after oven treatment? I don't have neatsfoot oil. I have a Mink Oil /beeswax treatment by Montana Pitch-Blend
that was recommended by John of Reameadow. Seems to do it all very well so I never thought to use another product. I do have other mink oils and some mineral oil if the MPB isn't appropriate.

Thanks for your help. I'm getting there, on the shoulders of you guys and I do appreciate your support.

Yes I punch the belt slots in pancake sheaths and my slotted sheath design while wet. Yes I also trim the excess leather and sand then, Damp leather sands much better and there is less danger of burning it.

Yes all stitches are sewn prior to putting them in the water. In fact I don't like to or won't sew even slightly damp leather. The sewing machine can make marks on the leather that are very difficult if not impossible to rub out. For example, when I make a horizontal or a slotted sheath I dampen the leather pretty good. This is so I can fold it in half and mark the interior stitching line. I ll then let the sheath dry in the sun and usually inside overnight before I proceed to glue up and stitching

I haven't had to rewet a sheath in quite a while. I'm working in smaller batches these days, 10-20 in stead of 60 odd. but if the leather is too dry, yes re wet it. Too dry is the color coming back to normal. While often times you can still wet mold if the leather is dry you will leave dark rub/burnished marks where you are molding. Course ya don't want it sopping wet either. I like to let the sheath just sink in the water and then I pull it out and place it on a towel. Bout the time I get everything else done above on the other sheaths the group is ready to wet mold.

No I do not bake the knife. I put the knife in and mold the sheath. I pull the knife out and wipe it down lightly with oil to prevent any rusting (bout half of the knives I make are carbon steel). The knife is then put away for the baking and drying afterwards.

Really just about any leather conditioner will work. I like the 100 percent pure neatsfoot oil for a couple of reasons.1) Its made from boiling down cow bones so you are kinda putting the right things back in the leather, or it would seem so since the leather most of the times came from a cow too. 2) I like the glow and color that it gives leather. Some of the other conditioners don't seem to do that. 3) Its pretty darn economical. I buy it by the gallon and a gallon will last me, even at the volume we work at a very long time, years really. I have changed over the last year and use a piece of sheepskin scrap as an applicator. I still use the brush on the edges and under the belt loop on a horizontal sheath but I'm really liking using the sheep skin scrap as an oil applicator. It seems to allow the oil to even out and set faster. Not as much dang too much oil in that spot. I do have some Montana Pitch Blend. We had a heck of a winter this year and the wife got a new pair of Schnee's (insulated boots), for feeding. They recommended MPB to use on the leather uppers so we ordered some up. Its pretty good stuff and I know my friend John Redmeadow Knives uses it a lot. I did find it very expensive though. $50 for a small tub shipped.

Ya bet anytime!!

 

[RayseM]

Thanks much! Trying - Doing this today!

 

[Horsewright]

They’re ya go! Make sure to let us know how it worked out for ya.

 

[RayseM]

3 hours in the oven huh? Took me that long to stitch this one today. Wow I had a struggle. Looks like it will be fine - if you look at it from your house.
Anyway - cooking now. Will still be in the oven at supper time. Photos tomorrow - maybe...

 

[Horsewright]

Just pulled three out from the oven just now. Got em oiled and they're hanging out on the counter till morning.

 

[RayseM]

Here it is. I've got an audible snap fit - solid and secure. Thanks so much Dave.



Remains to receive a MUMMERT CLIP for pocket carry - not in hand so I did not punch any holes. Will also have a set up, I'm thinking about, for
regular belt carry. I want it to hang lower than the M Clip will allow on the belt. More as it happens.

For now though - RETENTION accomplished!

 

[Horsewright]

Here it is. I've got an audible snap fit - solid and secure. Thanks so much Dave.

View attachment 2216238

Remains to receive a MUMMERT CLIP for pocket carry - not in hand so I did not punch any holes. Will also have a set up, I'm thinking about, for
regular belt carry. I want it to hang lower than the M Clip will allow on the belt. More as it happens.

For now though - RETENTION accomplished!

View attachment 2216239

Good deal, ya bet! Glad to help.

 

[Harvey Donaldson]

I guess in an ideal world we would have an undersized (circa 3/4 scale width/depth) wooden replica of the knife to form and shrink the leather around. Thus giving an awesome interference fit.

But what do I know!

Yours truly

Harv