- Joined
- Jun 22, 2003
- Messages
- 3,049
you know what.... ima gonna go buy another 20" siru from the store. the handle on mines a little odd shaped and i think it could be better.
leaveing the fold..selling out
- Thread starter bigjim
- Start date
- Status
bwray
Banned
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2005
- Messages
- 471
bigjim said:
Jim, you sound like a disgruntled member of a religous sect. What were you looking for with HI? If you bought into more "mystique" and "product loyalty" than you could sustain over the long haul that is your responsibility and your problem. If you are still looking for whatever it is you failed to find at HI, you may ultimately be disappointed again. To go out slinging mud and calling people "liars" is a pretty shabby attempt to shift the blame elsewhere.
"He who has so little knowledge of human nature as to seek happiness by changing anything but his own disposition will waste his life in fruitless efforts." (Samuel Johnson)
I am a relative newcomer in the HI Forum (joined 12/2/05) and I have never misunderstood anything about the level of Bura's participation in construction of the knives that come out under his name. I explored the HI website thoroughly before buying anything. Here is a direct quote from the website:
"After recovering in hospital from a blood clot in the brain, Bura is back making khukuris. He may not be able to swing the hammer but so what. In a lot of shops here in the US the hammer swinging is done by a machine. He's using helpers to do the heavy work but he's overseeing everything. I just got in a couple of M43s and some other stuff with his mark and it's Bura work for sure.
The secret to success is knowing when to pull the steel from the forge and telling the helper where to hit. Then knowing when to pull the knife from the forge and how to pour the water. Bura did not like to use helpers but I guess when you have no choice you do what you have to do.
I am not at all surprised. I knew Bura would not give up and would find a way.
It's good news, really -- two pluses. Bura is producing and this is going to make him feel good and his helpers will learn more from him than they would working with any other kami -- but knowing what a taskmaster Bura is, the helpers will pay the price for their education: 'Not like that, you idiot!!!!'
--B. Martino, 21-Oct-2002"
So where are the lies you speak of? If you get off on calling Yangdu a liar maybe you should change your name to littlejim. Perhaps it is you who are the liar, and the person you are lying to is yourself.
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2003
- Messages
- 19,814
bigjim,
well, i'm going to try and respond on a point by point, but without the quoted text/etc... i appreciate your position, and your opinion, and am not going to jump up and down and slam or screamk, but i will perhaps have a few pointed questions, that i'd be interested in hearing your answers, if you like...
well, off, why did you try to buy into the mystique and is there one? you like HI tools, or you don't. they're good tools - they may not be the prettiest, or the best, but the value is good - and some of them ARE damned pretty and very good value. they're lots of good tools out there as well... i happen to myself like several lines, and invest in, use, and trade/etc. sometimes they are safe queens, but by and large, most of my guys will get used, or SHOULD be used. HI products in particular, except for the special ones, are users. there are a lot of expensive knives, where i'll define expensive as starting at $300 for entry level, and moving on up to $999 at least and then some - i've followed a line lately that sells for $2k, IF you can get one - good luck, and people not only don't use them, they don't even touch them hardly after purchase. they don't know if they have quality or not. that scares me more. if i use and bust an HI, yangdu will take care of me. the other guys? well, i imagine many of them will have SOME guarantee... but if you don't use it... who knows. i'd love to sell people knives for $2k that they'll never test the integrity of. hah. what a living
loyalty. well, can't help ya there much. am i loyal? i dunno. i like the products. i have my issues. however, most of them are assuaged by the fact i know i have a bottom line fantastic guarantee behind them. heck, one of the kukris has a 2 for 1 deal if you break it. i don't know anyone that has that. that's loyalty - from the seller.
now, for the points 1-7...
1 - i'm betting bura does make some knives. i also bet he delegates some of the work, and he probably absolutely is involved everystep of the way, and especially the significant parts. bura is a major player in this, and there's something about his blades you can tell from others. the same for the other kamis as well. he happens to be a maker, a supervisor, and more. i read that into "made by bura"; the website shows kamis being assisted by others. i don't have a problem.
but let's say he's not. so what? these are *HI Products* first and foremost. when you buy a blade from any major manufacturer these days in a production capacity - becker knife and tool, division of camillus... ethan becker most assuredly does't make any knives for them now - yet his name is the brand... chris reeve - does he personally carved every blade from stock steel himself? he's got a buttload of computer controlled milling going on, and assisants. now, he supervises? sure. he might be the one to do final sharpening? i seem to recall that he isn't necessarily involved in EVERY knife except at the end for inspection. i could be wrong, but are they not marked as made by chris reeve? how about mike franklin? how about swiss army (it's an army making them ;> i kid)... now, a loveless? a beck? i expect those to be one man jobs, and you WAIT and pay baby. bussee - are they hand made by the owner? all of them? i'm guessing not. laser cut, machine formed from stock. they don't make their steel or their handle stock. most US makers don't these days (unless forged, which seems rare somewhat).. laser cut, stock removal, modern heat treaments (often outsourced). who made these items? does it matter?
2 - crude by what standards? i have mirror polished, razor sharp knives made using traditional methods. they are not german engineered precision (which has been lacking lately in cars ;>). they are not laser cut, and precision measured to .00001 mm. hand made. hand tools. we know this, you know this. what's the issue?
3 - there are quite a few custom makers that sell crap and won't take your knife back. HI will and give you another one, and make you happy *and* quickly. other guys? wait a year. i've seen stories of people with issues waiting YEARS. heck, i had a go around with a custom guy that took 3 months to get the right screws on the handle. eee.
4 - price isn't the object. it's not? good. buy what you like then i like bargain hunting. price IS the object for me a lot of times. oh, i look forward to your selling your stuff off. please contact me especially if you have anything really choice like BDC, YCS, GRS, and some others, especially chiruwa and dui-chirra :> course, i expect a serious discount, as they will come with no guarantee from HI anymore, and you aren't happy with them - i'll want to know why - in the fairness to me as a customer, but i AM interested. bargains you know. i expect to see at least 14 :>
5 - shrug - they have issues - don't like it? send it back. refund or new knife, or have it heat treated the way you like. i've had production and customs with SUCKY treatment bit no backup from the maker down the road. sold them too.
6 - the handles are mostly ok. they're tools. unlike many knives that you are stuck with, these can be readily fixed.
7 - you're aware that a great many customs and production knives (even so called production customs) come with *no* scabbard/sheath at all? and the multitude of aftermarket sheaths you can by cost more than your HI product (typically?) - people put up with that. i mean, good god. can you imagine having 2-3 lbs of sharp steel send to you wrapped in brown paper and shipped in a flimsy cardboard box or tube, and you dropped several hundred dollars on it *and* waited for weeks/months? i'd be pissed. at least with the HI product, you have a sheath, and you can always make or buy a new one. nobody is holding you back here, or overcharging you.
elsewhere you said you found a new perfect maker and named him. i don't know him or his work, but i'll look him up. since his stuff costs 10x what HI products typically do, and you have about 14 blades with a serious discount coming... i'm guessing after eating shipping costs and paypal fees and stuff, you'll have JUST enough enough to buy one of that product. hope it sings for you, i really do, because it would be quite disappointing if it didn't
sorry if any of this sounded harsh or an attack, but you have to figure that my questioning of your assault might provoke on my end some unintended emotion. yes, i guess i'm a little loyal to these people. they haven't screwed me at all.
bladite
(and yes, i expect bargains!)
well, i'm going to try and respond on a point by point, but without the quoted text/etc... i appreciate your position, and your opinion, and am not going to jump up and down and slam or screamk, but i will perhaps have a few pointed questions, that i'd be interested in hearing your answers, if you like...
well, off, why did you try to buy into the mystique and is there one? you like HI tools, or you don't. they're good tools - they may not be the prettiest, or the best, but the value is good - and some of them ARE damned pretty and very good value. they're lots of good tools out there as well... i happen to myself like several lines, and invest in, use, and trade/etc. sometimes they are safe queens, but by and large, most of my guys will get used, or SHOULD be used. HI products in particular, except for the special ones, are users. there are a lot of expensive knives, where i'll define expensive as starting at $300 for entry level, and moving on up to $999 at least and then some - i've followed a line lately that sells for $2k, IF you can get one - good luck, and people not only don't use them, they don't even touch them hardly after purchase. they don't know if they have quality or not. that scares me more. if i use and bust an HI, yangdu will take care of me. the other guys? well, i imagine many of them will have SOME guarantee... but if you don't use it... who knows. i'd love to sell people knives for $2k that they'll never test the integrity of. hah. what a living
loyalty. well, can't help ya there much. am i loyal? i dunno. i like the products. i have my issues. however, most of them are assuaged by the fact i know i have a bottom line fantastic guarantee behind them. heck, one of the kukris has a 2 for 1 deal if you break it. i don't know anyone that has that. that's loyalty - from the seller.
now, for the points 1-7...
1 - i'm betting bura does make some knives. i also bet he delegates some of the work, and he probably absolutely is involved everystep of the way, and especially the significant parts. bura is a major player in this, and there's something about his blades you can tell from others. the same for the other kamis as well. he happens to be a maker, a supervisor, and more. i read that into "made by bura"; the website shows kamis being assisted by others. i don't have a problem.
but let's say he's not. so what? these are *HI Products* first and foremost. when you buy a blade from any major manufacturer these days in a production capacity - becker knife and tool, division of camillus... ethan becker most assuredly does't make any knives for them now - yet his name is the brand... chris reeve - does he personally carved every blade from stock steel himself? he's got a buttload of computer controlled milling going on, and assisants. now, he supervises? sure. he might be the one to do final sharpening? i seem to recall that he isn't necessarily involved in EVERY knife except at the end for inspection. i could be wrong, but are they not marked as made by chris reeve? how about mike franklin? how about swiss army (it's an army making them ;> i kid)... now, a loveless? a beck? i expect those to be one man jobs, and you WAIT and pay baby. bussee - are they hand made by the owner? all of them? i'm guessing not. laser cut, machine formed from stock. they don't make their steel or their handle stock. most US makers don't these days (unless forged, which seems rare somewhat).. laser cut, stock removal, modern heat treaments (often outsourced). who made these items? does it matter?
2 - crude by what standards? i have mirror polished, razor sharp knives made using traditional methods. they are not german engineered precision (which has been lacking lately in cars ;>). they are not laser cut, and precision measured to .00001 mm. hand made. hand tools. we know this, you know this. what's the issue?
3 - there are quite a few custom makers that sell crap and won't take your knife back. HI will and give you another one, and make you happy *and* quickly. other guys? wait a year. i've seen stories of people with issues waiting YEARS. heck, i had a go around with a custom guy that took 3 months to get the right screws on the handle. eee.
4 - price isn't the object. it's not? good. buy what you like then
i like bargain hunting. price IS the object for me a lot of times. oh, i look forward to your selling your stuff off. please contact me especially if you have anything really choice like BDC, YCS, GRS, and some others, especially chiruwa and dui-chirra :> course, i expect a serious discount, as they will come with no guarantee from HI anymore, and you aren't happy with them - i'll want to know why - in the fairness to me as a customer, but i AM interested. bargains you know. i expect to see at least 14 :>5 - shrug - they have issues - don't like it? send it back. refund or new knife, or have it heat treated the way you like. i've had production and customs with SUCKY treatment bit no backup from the maker down the road. sold them too.
6 - the handles are mostly ok. they're tools. unlike many knives that you are stuck with, these can be readily fixed.
7 - you're aware that a great many customs and production knives (even so called production customs) come with *no* scabbard/sheath at all? and the multitude of aftermarket sheaths you can by cost more than your HI product (typically?) - people put up with that. i mean, good god. can you imagine having 2-3 lbs of sharp steel send to you wrapped in brown paper and shipped in a flimsy cardboard box or tube, and you dropped several hundred dollars on it *and* waited for weeks/months? i'd be pissed. at least with the HI product, you have a sheath, and you can always make or buy a new one. nobody is holding you back here, or overcharging you.
elsewhere you said you found a new perfect maker and named him. i don't know him or his work, but i'll look him up. since his stuff costs 10x what HI products typically do, and you have about 14 blades with a serious discount coming... i'm guessing after eating shipping costs and paypal fees and stuff, you'll have JUST enough enough to buy one of that product. hope it sings for you, i really do, because it would be quite disappointing if it didn't
sorry if any of this sounded harsh or an attack, but you have to figure that my questioning of your assault might provoke on my end some unintended emotion. yes, i guess i'm a little loyal to these people. they haven't screwed me at all.
bladite
(and yes, i expect bargains!)
Wow. 95% of the responses to this thread have been extremely civil and well spoken. Never before have I been so impressed by people on a forum. Completely astonishing. Even bigjim must be in shock. If he did this on any other forum in the world, this thread would've exploded to 24 pages of profanities before being locked and deleted. I think it speaks a lot for the confidence the members have in the blades they personally own, that they are not in the slightest way threatened by a post like this. I have an AK bowie with a ruined heat treat, but that was due to my own stupidity and a belt sander. I do think the heat treats on some of the blades may not be perfectly consistent, it's almost impossible with the number of makers and the variability, but the excellent warrantee and customer service make up for it to me. If I have a problem with the steel, they'll fix it. The rest is mostly about edge geometry.
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2001
- Messages
- 4,238
bigjim said:
The knives aren't perfect.
I'm assuming you meant "make do"
Bill wasn't, and Yangdu isn't dishonest.
Goodbye.
Steve Ferguson
Edited to add: I'm curious to see how you will market these shoddy, poorly heat treated knives on the For Sale Forum.
Good luck.Also added: I also love Bill Buxton's work. If I had an extra $985 laying around, I'd buy that damascus and black ash burl mosaic fighter at Bladegallery today. He is an amazing smith.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2005
- Messages
- 880
Munk, my mellow man, you are spot on as always. Jim, I am wealthier in a lot of ways than I ought to be, and I do own a couple 'perfect' custom knives from some of the better makers. You know where their knives are??? In the safe! They are too pretty to use every day, so there they lay. My grand daddy was a blacksmith and farrier in West Virginia. When I was a kid, I used to work the bellows, or hold the horse's head while he fitted the shoes. My memories are part of my wealth. Do you know what rides every day between the seat and the console of my pickup? An 18" WWII, and it's a villager! Trust me, I could have any blade I want, but I love every scratch and blem, and IT WORKS, first time, every time......just like my 1911, not pretty, just works. Don't leave the Cantina because you love pretty....just don't think the rest of us have suddenly become chumps because we favor function over cosmetic perfection. My wife of 42 years is no longer the babe she onecst was, but I cherish her even more. Stick around for the quality of the folks you met here....that hasn't changed since Bill left early. God bless.
David
David
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2005
- Messages
- 3,827
Bigjim, sorry to hear about your disenchantment with HI. I have three HI products, two by Bura and one by the good Sarge. I bought them to use as tools, use being the operative word here. I am completely satisfied with the quality and craftsmanship of these knifes for my intended purpose, this is all that matters to me. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect it. So now you have mine and I hope you can respect it as well. HI is not your cup of tea, to that we can agree. I have been reading the responses to your confession and sense that most of us are a bit confused by statement #1 "Bura does not make a bunch of knives a day. Yet the every daily special claims he does. This is not a cultural misunderstanding, its a lie." Can you show us some examples of this, where, verbatim, does it claim that Bura makes a bunch of knives a day? I have been impressed with the civility shown here towards your original post and hope it continues.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2005
- Messages
- 1,991
BigJim
If ya got an HI Kerambit laying around let me know
If ya got an HI Kerambit laying around let me know
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2005
- Messages
- 880
Let's just say mine's been thru the war, and has the scars to prove it......medbill said:Ok now I am infuriated at you David, what do mean the 1911 isn't pretty!!??!!!??
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2006
- Messages
- 353
David,
I'd call them beauty marks! My grandfather in Idaho has a Remington Rand 1911 that he bought from the DCM for around 20 bucks or less! Man I love that pistol!
Mine are beauty queens, fancy two tone Wilson, Kimber Ultra CDP and a Colt Officers 80 series gone over by Wilson.
Now back to Khuks, I'm looking forward to reading the ads for the khuks that will be up for sale soon.
B
I'd call them beauty marks! My grandfather in Idaho has a Remington Rand 1911 that he bought from the DCM for around 20 bucks or less! Man I love that pistol!
Mine are beauty queens, fancy two tone Wilson, Kimber Ultra CDP and a Colt Officers 80 series gone over by Wilson.
Now back to Khuks, I'm looking forward to reading the ads for the khuks that will be up for sale soon.
B
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2003
- Messages
- 3,049
i will hopefully have what will probably end up being 2 1600$ customs from busse combat, and a 600$ le version from busse combat within the next 3-10 years (im putting in my order now for the customs, and thats probably how long it will take). one of the customs is going to be a belt knife, and the le version will be my beater/prybar.
they will be perfect, and i will use them every day. they are literally the knives i dreamed about when i started to realize what a knife is. they have probably the greatest warrantee in the knife industry - and i still buy HI. just becuase i have what i consider to be technicaly "better", wont stop me from loving something of technically lower quality.
right now im ordering 2 of the other knives i dreamed about from himalayan imports - two knives that i dont think jerry would make (in fact, i can almost gaurentee it, im not sure his machining equipment could handle that thick of stock, and i know he wouldnt want to hand grind it). and i sincerly doubt many custom makers would even attempt to tackle them becuase of there sheer size, weight, and use of materials.
they will be perfect, and i will use them every day. they are literally the knives i dreamed about when i started to realize what a knife is. they have probably the greatest warrantee in the knife industry - and i still buy HI. just becuase i have what i consider to be technicaly "better", wont stop me from loving something of technically lower quality.
right now im ordering 2 of the other knives i dreamed about from himalayan imports - two knives that i dont think jerry would make (in fact, i can almost gaurentee it, im not sure his machining equipment could handle that thick of stock, and i know he wouldnt want to hand grind it). and i sincerly doubt many custom makers would even attempt to tackle them becuase of there sheer size, weight, and use of materials.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2000
- Messages
- 2,688
BigJim,
I tend to not even respond to threads like this. That said.
Often what you say is not as important as how you say it. You have opinions. You are entitled to them. To attack others integrity, common sense and state of mind is less likely to provoke thoughtful discourse on a products quality and more likely to provoke a fight. To leave because you are unhappy with a product is one thing. To soil your departure with some of your statements is a sad testament to you as a man. Bye. :thumbdn:
I tend to not even respond to threads like this. That said.
Often what you say is not as important as how you say it. You have opinions. You are entitled to them. To attack others integrity, common sense and state of mind is less likely to provoke thoughtful discourse on a products quality and more likely to provoke a fight. To leave because you are unhappy with a product is one thing. To soil your departure with some of your statements is a sad testament to you as a man. Bye. :thumbdn:
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2003
- Messages
- 13,182
The points other folks made but I'll make them again
That all said I don't like to pay big money for any khuk. I have quite a few and have paid less than 100 for most. They are more crude than a US custom, but cost less.
I personally would like to see a better job being done on the temper myself. I have bent numerous khuks, however you have a 100% guarantee and short of just getting on to them more not sure what else Yangdu can do.
- I think the Kamis are more like contractors who have subcontractors. I don't believe Bura makes the knives himself but has helpers. Still most have traits that make them "Buras" I have had a few that did not look like Bura's knives but most do. Personally I don't care who made them as long as they work.
- Go and ask a custom maker to make you an 18" pound and a half khuk and see what it costs you. I have tried LOTS of custom bowies khuks etc and khuks cost less and out chop most of them
- What are you selling?
That all said I don't like to pay big money for any khuk. I have quite a few and have paid less than 100 for most. They are more crude than a US custom, but cost less.
I personally would like to see a better job being done on the temper myself. I have bent numerous khuks, however you have a 100% guarantee and short of just getting on to them more not sure what else Yangdu can do.
BigJIM;
Sir, sorry you are unhappy with the HI products, I just checked the "For Sale" forum and nothing is posted.
Let's get with it, post a list with prices and you can be rid of those items!
Dick
Please let us know what category you list them in, thanks.
Sir, sorry you are unhappy with the HI products, I just checked the "For Sale" forum and nothing is posted.
Let's get with it, post a list with prices and you can be rid of those items!
Dick
Please let us know what category you list them in, thanks.
You know, when I bought my $85 16 1/2" WWII, I didn't expect perfection. I expected a good tool, made in the 3rd world, showing evidence of hand craftsmanship.
It's fulfilled all those needs - and is in virtually daily use. The Sarge knife I purchased doesn't look perfect either (and still won't once I've finished re-handling it ... pics soon! ). But price IS an object to me, and I've ended up with a tool which cuts like a dream, looks very fine, and I'm not afraid to put to hard and daily use.
That's why I'm purchasing HI. I'm not a collector, I'm not looking for either visual or technical perfection. I'm looking for a far better than average tool, for a far better than average price, and not shaft the workers in a 3rd world country in order to get it. HI gives me that product, and that assurance. If it's not a Loveless or a Buxton, fine - that's not what I'm paying for.
T.
It's fulfilled all those needs - and is in virtually daily use. The Sarge knife I purchased doesn't look perfect either (and still won't once I've finished re-handling it ... pics soon! ). But price IS an object to me, and I've ended up with a tool which cuts like a dream, looks very fine, and I'm not afraid to put to hard and daily use.
That's why I'm purchasing HI. I'm not a collector, I'm not looking for either visual or technical perfection. I'm looking for a far better than average tool, for a far better than average price, and not shaft the workers in a 3rd world country in order to get it. HI gives me that product, and that assurance. If it's not a Loveless or a Buxton, fine - that's not what I'm paying for.
T.
- Status